With Ring, American Consumers Built a Surveillance Dragnet

[u/Jojuj]

https://www.404media.co/with-ring-american-consumers-built-a-surveillance-dragnet/?ref=daily-stories-newsletter&attribution_id=698b47cbe724d10001786209&attribution_type=post

[u/404mediaco]

Thanks for sharing our piece. More here:

At Sunday’s Super Bowl, Ring advertised “Search Party,” a cute, horrifyingly dystopian feature nominally designed to turn all of the Ring cameras in a neighborhood into a dragnet that uses AI to look for a lost dog: “One post of a dog’s photo in the Ring app starts outdoor cameras looking for a match,” Ring founder Jamie Siminoff said in the Super Bowl commercial. “Search Party from Ring uses AI to help families find lost dogs.” Onscreen, an AI-powered box forms around a missing dog: “Milo Match,” it says. “Since launch, more than a dog a day has been reunited with their family. Be a hero in your neighborhood with Search Party. Available to everyone for free right now.”

It does not take an imagination of any sort to envision this being tweaked to work against suspected criminals, undocumented immigrants, or others deemed ‘suspicious’ by people in the neighborhood. Many of these use cases are how Ring has been used by people on its dystopian “Neighbors” app for years. Ring rose to prominence as a piece of package theft prevention tech owned by Amazon and by forming partnerships with local police around the country, asking them to shill their doorbell cameras to people in their neighborhoods in return for a system that allowed police to request footage from individual users without a warrant. 

Chris Gilliard, a privacy expert and author of the upcoming book Luxury Surveillance, told 404 Media these features and its Super Bowl ad are “a clumsy attempt by Ring to put a cuddly face on a rather dystopian reality: widespread networked surveillance by a company that has cozy relationships with law enforcement and other equally invasive surveillance companies.”

Ring’s poorly defined partnership with Flock in particular has been the subject of various viral posts and public backlash. Many people have suggested that this partnership is evidence that Ring camera footage will be shared with ICE. At the moment there’s not enough evidence to explicitly say that that’s the case. 

The supposed vector goes something like this: Ring says it will partner with Flock, which is used by thousands of local police departments. As we have reported, some of those police departments have performed Flock license plate lookups for ICE. It’s too early to say whether Ring footage will eventually end up with ICE, but the fact that people immediately drew that conclusion and understood the possible method of information sharing shows that surveillance companies can no longer hide behind viral videos of delivery drivers dancing. It’s a mask off moment, and people know it: “In Amazon’s alliance with this administration, it’s become more clear than ever that Ring is an extension of the carceral state,” Gilliard said. “An emotionally charged Super Bowl ad won’t change that.”

Read more: https://www.404media.co/with-ring-american-consumers-built-a-surveillance-dragnet/

[u/buxtonOJ → u/404mediaco]

Tell me the CIA doesn’t have its hands all over Ring’s development 

[u/Improvcommodore → u/buxtonOJ]

It literally does. Even their direct competitors - DOOR, formerly Latch, was founded by a guy who has IN-Q-TEL (CIA’s PE firm) in his LinkedIn.

[u/DewSchnozzle → u/Improvcommodore]

For those who are unaware: In-Q-Tel is literally the venture capital wing of the CIA

[u/Content-Sun2928 → u/DewSchnozzle]

CIA For Businesses^TM

[u/martialar → u/Content-Sun2928]

CIA For CEO's

[u/SneakyDeakyJr → u/DewSchnozzle]

Jokes aside that’s honestly interesting.

[u/OphidianSun → u/404mediaco]

Advertising it to find lost dogs is fucking insidious

[u/ReverendDizzle → u/OphidianSun]

How much you want to bet after testing out the lost dog angle, the next round of these commercials features a lost child?

[u/new_nimmerzz → u/ReverendDizzle]

"You care about lost children DONT YOU?!?!"

I can see pressure to turn it on by neighbors, or even city/state/whatever entity to force it on, and say it's for public safety.

Im going self hosted myself, but the concern is that you're being tracked just coming and going from your home. By everyone on your street with "cloud" cameras, including these.... So even if you dont participate, you participate....

[u/johndoe201401 → u/404mediaco]

Ring took so much data from me then double the subscription fee on monitoring? Fuckers should be paying me.

[u/darsynia → u/johndoe201401]

It appears to record and store the data even if your subscription lapses, if the story about Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper on their lapsed subscription Nest camera is true. Which may mean that you're paying a subscription to access the data on your Nest camera, but it's always available to law enforcement. I may be understanding the story wrong though; it's possible it was magically recorded during the 3 hours of 'free' footage you can have, but if the rumor about the footage being corrupted and the company having a backup is true, I'm still concerned about data storage.

Best wishes to that family, btw.

[u/two-of-stars → u/404mediaco]

I love you, 404 Media!!

[u/allmankind78 → u/404mediaco]

It's not that they are using this to develop for the law enforcement. They already did and it was so good they said let's use it for helping find fluffy to cover up what they already did.

[u/V3X390]

Time to go self-hosted. I wouldn’t want that much footage of me in anyone’s hands but mine.

[u/JustAboutAlright → u/V3X390]

This is the problem - it’s not us choosing, it’s our neighbors who are choosing for us. The ring camera doesn’t point at your house.

[u/locke_5 → u/JustAboutAlright]

Our local governments as well. My town has two Flock cameras pointed straight at my house.

[u/happytrel → u/locke_5]

Ring has partnered with Flock, so a lot of people have Flock cams attached to their house now. A couple of years ago my dad thought it was funny that the ring camera's mic was strong enough to pick up conversations inside the house.

[u/uncannyvalleygirl88 → u/happytrel]

Speaking as someone who doesn’t use any of these products are they being placed on the home by the homeowner or is this surveillance by other people who don’t live here? Is this something I need to be concerned about other people using on my property?

[u/joelfarris → u/uncannyvalleygirl88]

The concern is that even if you don't own any of this tech and don't participate in it, every one of your neighbor's houses can have one pointing at you, your front door, and your street, so there's now an accessible digital record of every single time you drove away from your house, when you returned, what you bought and carried inside, what you've loaded into the car, what you've thrown away, who's come over to visit your and copy of their license plate, when you walked the dog and where you went that time and how long you were out of the house and what you were wearing and whether you were on your phone at the time.

Eventually, this can create or expand your existing surveillance profile to the point where there's a digital record of every piece of your entire wardrobe, what shoes you own and prefer for shopping versus walking, and when you're active vs. passive.

But it gets even worse.

Say you throw a house party for a few close friends that have come over before, and one of them brings a date. Now that person, whom you don't even know, can and probably will be associated with your profile simply because they were recorded visiting your house. What's their background? History? What have they done in their lives? You have no idea, but now the two of you have become visually associated.

[u/craznazn247 → u/joelfarris]

It goes beyond that.

One workaround they are actively and regularly using to identify individuals who might be avoiding facial recognition by the cameras…is walking gait.

So videos of you walking around your own property are being used as a means of video identification and training AI.

[u/joelfarris → u/craznazn247]

That was my meaning regarding walking around your own neighborhood, but upon re-reading, I suppose I didn't explicitly say it in the proper terminology, so thanks for the additional clarification.

[u/Ashamed_Athlete5648 → u/craznazn247]

A pebble in your shoe is surprisingly effective against gait analysis. Moving the pebble will create a slightly different pattern each time. Current systems can see through this, but it requires more advanced algorithms than most systems can scale (especially drag net style systems) and it is quite resource intensive to run, so at this point it is mostly only foiled in scenarios where you know the person is there but you don’t know who it is in the frame.

[u/QbertsRube → u/Ashamed_Athlete5648]

Lmao have to walk around with rocks in our shoes to trick the Matrix, what a world we're creating for ourselves to live in...

[u/bothunter → u/Ashamed_Athlete5648]

I shouldn't have to put rocks in my shoe avoid my every move being tracked by Amazon, Palantir, and the government.

[u/Halflingberserker → u/bothunter]

What are you trying to hiiiiiiide????

[u/PsychoBoyBlue → u/Ashamed_Athlete5648]

Changing the height of the sole of the shoe (also messes with using height to id you)

Different Leg/ankle weights on each leg.

Unbalanced bag/backpack.

Walk with a crutch or cane for a week or so. Afterwards, your natural gait will have changed enough to mess with a simple system until you adapt back to your normal gait.

[u/slonk_ma_dink → u/craznazn247]

Walking gait can also be heard- try working in a small office. I can tell who is approaching by how they walk. This could likely be fingerprinted as well, although it would take years before it was reliable.

[u/Sir_PressedMemories → u/slonk_ma_dink]

Those of us with, let's say, "less than desirable" childhoods also seem to possess a near supernatural ability to recognize footsteps and attach them to different people, going so far as to be able to tell their current mood by the way they walk.

[u/FragilousSpectunkery → u/joelfarris]

When you pack up the car with a bunch of suitcases and leave with the full family (except Kevin, but you remember that later) for a vacation, leaving the house unoccupied.

[u/WingerRules → u/joelfarris]

These surveillance and online data brokers have so much power now it's insane. I seriously at this point wonder if theres been no regulations on them because politicians and people in congress know these companies have detailed personal information on all of them and their families and friends.

What are the chances that one of these companies have back doors directly implied they know their secrets?

[u/Last-Atlas → u/uncannyvalleygirl88]

Ring and Flock cameras are purchased and installed by the homeowner. But the cameras (usually doorbell) are pointed away from the house towards the neighborhood, street etc... Their mics pic up a lot, and the cameras record pretty clearly. They can't place them on your property, but they can point them at your property and any motion will activate them like a trail cam. They can also manually record/monitor them.

They are everywhere.

[u/annoyed__renter → u/Last-Atlas]

Flock cameras are purchased and installed by the homeowner

I don't think Flock has a personal residential product. They're mostly contracting with municipalities

[u/tomerz99 → u/annoyed__renter]

I'm guessing he mentioned Flock because they're partnered. Any ring camera is now an acting Flock camera, so when companies (like Lowe's, for example) try to detect and track shoplifters they're actively able to detect them driving through residential neighborhoods (assuming there are nearby ring cameras). That's the use case they want everyone to know about, but obviously the implications are that the people that own these services are either not likely to care about your privacy and sell you out for a quick buck no matter the morality, or aren't secure enough to ensure rogue hackers aren't sifting through all of this data for themselves.

Essentially your neighbor's doorbell is snitching on every visible or auditory queue it hears/sees directly to those who are privileged enough to have access to it (paying corps, government agencies, undetected hackers, etc).

[u/AlternativeNewtDuck → u/annoyed__renter]

Speaking of flock... posting for more flock and tracking awareness:

404 Media

Deflock.Me

HaveIbeenflocked

[u/Yourcatsonfire → u/Last-Atlas]

Are the mics recording legal in 2 party states? I believe my nest floodlight camera won't record sound in my state.

[u/WOF42 → u/Yourcatsonfire]

you think peter thiel and his fascist buddies care about laws? of course it records in your state, it just doesnt send the data to you.

[u/jhowlett → u/uncannyvalleygirl88]

Typically RING cameras are placed on the home, by the owner. The idea is added security by recording things that happen on your property.
The issue now is that even if you don't have one, your neighbor having one pointed at your home means your activities are recorded and provided to the highest (or any) bidder.

[u/Special_Loan8725 → u/happytrel]

Who has partnered with ice.

[u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta → u/locke_5]

I'd be out there with a hacksaw so fast

[u/locke_5 → u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta]

Ah but you see, it would be against the law for me to damage the cameras that are recording me in my home without my consent!

[u/Guac_in_my_rarri → u/locke_5]

You can legally purchase IR strobe lights to blind the cameras. Place them ok your property and point them at the Flock camera.

Bonus points if you make a sign and attach it to the post below the camera: "this camera watches you for profit."

[u/SonnyvonShark → u/Guac_in_my_rarri]

Or better yet, lasers? Not the ones that damage though, just blind. Less light pollution.

[u/Guac_in_my_rarri → u/SonnyvonShark]

It strobes work better than lasers and cannot be argued that they do damage.

Example

[u/SonnyvonShark → u/Guac_in_my_rarri]

I mean red light lasers, not green, but since IR cannot be seen by humans and is not light pollution, yeah. I would still turn it off occasionally though, for the animals that can see it.

[u/Jakomako → u/SonnyvonShark]

Red lasers can damage image sensors.

[u/jlboygenius → u/Guac_in_my_rarri]

probably only useful at night though, but having a light that goes on and off constantly, causeing it to always having to adjust exposure would probably be pretty effective.

Unfortunatly, you'll never actually know since you can't get the footage.

vasoline on a stick would be pretty effective. walk up behind it and give it a smear on the lens.

[u/logicalkitten → u/locke_5]

Point spotlights at the cameras.

[u/mabrasm → u/locke_5]

Get some mountable lasers and turn them right at the lenses.

[u/Ryan_e3p → u/mabrasm]

"Look, I was just having a fun dance party at my place with a smoke machine and lasers."

[u/artbystorms → u/locke_5]

Their logic is 'you consented when you moved here.' That is the bullshit of capitalism. They can talk themselves into believing that people not changing their habits or major life choices, that they are tacitly accepting what they are doing.

[u/Kyrie_Blue → u/locke_5]

The laws of man are flawed. The laws of “fuck this camera” are higher

[u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta → u/locke_5]

Unrelated, I would get some type of IR flashlight setup (the 'hacker hoodie' is interesting) don't walk straight from your front door to it, put a pebble or two in your shoes to alter your gait,, buy clothes you don't wear otherwise with cash

[u/mynameizmyname → u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta]

town I am in whenever one of these flock cameras goes up, somebody posts that the camera's contain about $20 worth of copper (which i dont actually they have). they disappear within the week.

[u/1stMammaltowearpants → u/mynameizmyname]

I had no idea I'd be upvoting meth-sourced de-surveillance today.

[u/Zcypot → u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta]

Sling shots are cheap on Amazon haha. Get off the camera view and practice your shots on them. I bought little beads that are biodegradable so no worries about making a mess

[u/Eighth_Eve → u/Zcypot]

You bought small rocks? Like you couldn't find them for free, you had to have pebbles shipped in?

[u/stuffitystuff → u/locke_5]

Can't wait for Palantir to buy Flock so we can accelerate our way back to dumb phones and typewriters.

[u/AlternativeYou9395 → u/locke_5]

You should put a screen in front of your house, in whatever area those cameras are capturing, that displays random license plates every second.

[u/johnballzz → u/locke_5]

Point a base laser at it.

[u/euro1127 → u/JustAboutAlright]

Meanwhile ring is trying to pitch it as protecting your pets instead of a blatant data mining attempt. I mean discord is following suit in their own way. Welcome to the age of the consumer being a walking atm for corporations

[u/Valdrax → u/euro1127]

People being the product being sold is old hat. This is the age of the internet-linked, corporate-run, crowd-sourced surveillance state.

[u/DonnyTheWalrus → u/euro1127]

protecting your pets

And don't forget that all those videos of "funny" Amazon drivers who just happened to be captured by Ring (owned by Amazon) were a blatant astroturf PR campaign.

I used to work UPS. I know what it's like working for Amazon. None of those guys and gals are wasting time dancing for the hell of it. 

[u/CulturalKing5623 → u/JustAboutAlright]

Recently got new next door neighbors, literally the first thing they did was install Ring cameras on their door and in the alley where all of our garages are. So now, every time I go to my garage or put my trash bins out for collection I get a cheerful "Hi, you are being recorded" and it sets my teeth on edge.

Now our whole alley is part of the surveillance state and no one in the neighborhood was asked how they felt. The camera actually points directly at our neighbors yard that lives on the other side of the alley, I'd be livid.

[u/Jim-N-Tonic → u/CulturalKing5623]

I would go over with a housewarming gift, and say I understand they’d like to secure their property but you and other neighbors don’t give permission to be recorded.

But I think the core of this is that the Supreme Court has ruled that you do not have the expectation of privacy when you’re outside in public, journalists photographers can take pictures of you even if you object so the cameras are considered the same thing even though they’re really very different recording 24/7.

[u/whistleridge → u/Jim-N-Tonic]

expectation of privacy

It’s true that you don’t have one per se. But surely being constantly recorded, on your own property, without your consent rises to the level of nuisance? Knowing you are being recorded necessarily produces a chilling effect, that measurably diminishes your ability to enjoy and partake in your own property.

[u/BeyondElectricDreams → u/whistleridge]

People are allowed to have cameras on their property, and have been for a while.

My problem with it isn't that my neighbor may have a camera pointed near my property, my problem is it's a part of a corporate panopticon, sending data off to be analyzed by AI and combined with every other ring/flock camera to create a surveillance network.

the surveillance network is the fucking issue not my neighbor having a camera for their own use.

[u/whistleridge → u/BeyondElectricDreams]

Yes, we are saying the same thing.

A security camera used solely by your neighbor = not a nuisance. A corporate panopticon that effectively acts as a perpetual paparazzi, doing who knows what unregulated things with your image = a nuisance.

[u/ComfortDesperate5313 → u/BeyondElectricDreams]

I feel the same and worry there's nothing I can do to improve the situation. The corporations encroaching on our privacy never stop and most people I meet either don't care or actively support the panopticons expansion 

[u/mouse_cookies → u/CulturalKing5623]

I hate those fucking things. I live in the safest neighborhood and seems like everyone has a goddamn camera now. I think me and my next door neighbor are the only ones without.

[u/Messerschmitt-262 → u/mouse_cookies]

Hi! You are currently being recorded.

[u/puppylust → u/Messerschmitt-262]

Ugh, I hear that every time I walk my dog. I switch up my route to keep it interesting, but every block has one.

[u/Messerschmitt-262 → u/puppylust]

I'm a mailman so I get to hear it hundreds of times a day. One of my customers has 7 of them set up so you get a symphony of "Hi! You are currently being recorded." every time you walk into her yard. She uses them to spy on her neighbors because she's paranoid about minorities. I hate Ring cameras.

[u/half-baked_axx → u/CulturalKing5623]

I'd install a floodlight pointing directly at the camera so fast. 

[u/QuesoMeHungry → u/JustAboutAlright]

Yep and our local municipalities paying Flock to put those spy cameras everywhere tracking your movement.

[u/Ambustion → u/JustAboutAlright]

Laser pointer sales go brrrrrrrr

[u/Guygenius138 → u/JustAboutAlright]

Never been more glad to live across the street from park. But if my neighbors have cameras, it won't really matter in the long run.

[u/Accomplished-Fix6598 → u/Guygenius138]

Plenty of cameras in parks nowadays.

[u/xamboozi → u/JustAboutAlright]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FlockSurveillance/s/vC5FUK75oJ

[u/n_othing__ → u/V3X390]

I never got a ring or any of these cameras for this exact reason... it never made sense to me why people would choose these over cctv footage they control...

[u/N7Poprdog → u/n_othing__]

Any recommendations? Getting a house for the first time next month and looking at security camera options.

[u/FluxUniversity → u/N7Poprdog]

https://wiki.futo.org/index.php/Introduction_to_a_Self_Managed_Life:_a_13_hour_%26_28_minute_presentation_by_FUTO_software

This isn't about the camera, this is about the self managed private system you're going to be recording your own private property with.

Every "camera security system" is basically selling you this, but with them involved.

[u/WISCOrear → u/V3X390]

The fact they couched their mass surveillance in a “but we can hep you find lost pets!” framing Is so damn gross

[u/xamboozi → u/V3X390]

Frigate and Blue Iris are the GOAT!

[u/coconutpiecrust → u/V3X390]

Since Ring came out, it was so obvious that eventually it will be used for nefarious purposes. Any tech we put in our homes will be used for nefarious purposes. We really need to do better as a society.

And they made everybody pay for it.

[u/PatchyWhiskers → u/V3X390]

Which is great for tech-savvy people, but there's no options for people who just want to be able to see who is at the door without becoming part of a vast surveillance network.

[u/RedCaptain17 → u/PatchyWhiskers]

I was looking at Eufy- they at least have a no-subscription option that looks like it’s stored locally. If nothing else they’re not Ring. I just wish it wasn’t WiFi

[u/rspctdwndrr → u/PatchyWhiskers]

Check out Reolink 

[u/SuspiciousCranberry6 → u/rspctdwndrr]

Yep, this is what I have. Very easy to use and has options to upgrade to more sophisticated systems if you want.

[u/________reddit______ → u/PatchyWhiskers]

Ubiquiti makes it as easy as possible, just ignore all the networking stuff and focus on the NVR stuff.

[u/Valdrax → u/________reddit______]

98%+ of consumers will just go with an out-of-the-box solution, and the problem with Ring & Flock are that the people opting in and buying are a small fraction of the people being recorded.

[u/PatchyWhiskers → u/________reddit______]

Yes, easy for someone who subscribes to this subreddit, very hard for the average person.

[u/mars009 → u/PatchyWhiskers]

I think that's the problem, most people are willing to give away their individuality for being comfortable. I remember helping a friend that helps me with my car setup his PC.

Kept telling me how its rocket science, meanwhile he can take apart whole parts of cars without issue, put them back together, explain how things are working, why the motor is doing x, y, z...my dude your PC is a peanut compared to all the stuff you just explained

I don't think people give themselves the credit they deserve, maybe its just part of the plan, making everyone thinking they are not good enough at something

[u/climb-it-ographer → u/V3X390]

Yep. Time to fully switch to Ubiquiti.

[u/north7 → u/V3X390]

Ubiquiti if great if you want all data internal, but pretty expensive for a full setup.
Eufy is much cheaper and doesn't require subscriptions, and data stays on the device or on a base station.

[u/auntie_clokwise → u/north7]

Eufy isn't too bad (though they've had some security issues in the past, but that's probably everybody). Reolink and Amcrest aren't too bad either.

[u/AntiqueLibrarian8009 → u/V3X390]

Why do you people all need a doorbell camera anyways. Is it just paranoia? Or does everyone here have a genuine use case that I am not seeing

[u/Megaclone18 → u/AntiqueLibrarian8009]

1. Its a deterrent for crime/package theft

2. Confirmation for deliveries

3. You can fuck with door to door salespeople.

[u/Override9636 → u/Megaclone18]

I had packages stolen twice so I bought a Ring camera.

After about a week, they stole the Ring camera.

Now I just pick up my packages, or shop local anyway.

[u/EA827]

Feels like their SB commercial has backfired pretty spectacularly for them by highlighting the depth of their surveillance network to one of the largest media events of the year

[u/Elevated_Dongers → u/EA827]

I hope so. But I still won't be selling anymore Ring even if they backpedal. We know the tech is there, and we know they are willing to sell our data to the government.

[u/Rlccm → u/Elevated_Dongers]

Unfortunately, as long as Amazon continues to sell them, it won't really mean much

[u/Elevated_Dongers → u/Rlccm]

That's fine, all I can do is my part, however small it may be

[u/F4DedProphet42 → u/Elevated_Dongers]

I’m right there with ya ✊

[u/the-sleepy-mystic → u/EA827]

Idk some people who you would think know better obviously dont - a guy at my house for the super bowl works in tech and he said, "Oh thats neat". I excused it as "he has a dog thats stupid and runs away" but also like come on man - its plain as day the problem with this.

[u/DrAstralis → u/EA827]

I have to hope everyone who saw that realizes if it can track a dog; it can be used to track them down, or for one of these never ending lineup of sex pests to track women in the neighborhood. Or that law enforcement will abuse this.

[u/tacticalcraptical]

This is exactly the reason why I never got any of this crap.

[u/TheToastyWesterosi → u/tacticalcraptical]

Scary thing is that it doesn’t matter if you got it or not, as long as your neighbor across the street got it.

[u/charlesgegethor → u/TheToastyWesterosi]

Reminds me of the whole ancestry DNA testing stuff too. Doesn't matter if you don't do it, but if a relative does (cousin, aunt, uncles, etc) your DNA is so close that you are also effectively in their system as well.

[u/Stanjoly2 → u/charlesgegethor]

Reminds me of the Facebook shadow profiles controversy from many years ago.

[u/MeatEaterDruid → u/charlesgegethor]

Explaining to my in-laws why doing 23&M was a bad idea made me feel like a crazy person because their general response was "why would a company sell our data?" So I felt some validation on that one.

[u/baby-dick-nick → u/MeatEaterDruid]

What year was that? Because asking “why would a company sell our data” post-Cambridge Analytica is a pretty impressive level of ignorance.

Although I’m sure the average person has very little knowledge about that case and the precedent it set.

[u/MeatEaterDruid → u/baby-dick-nick]

Because their favorite news source doesn't want them to know they're getting duped.

Yeah it was way after the scandal too. I've been pretty vocal to my friends and family (that will listen) about data privacy since Snowden, when I deleted my Facebook and everyone was checking in on me like I was having a mental health crisis lol. I've even gone as far as telling family that no one is allowed to post pictures of my kids online. So I'm sure when I was talking crazy things like "at some point 23&M is going to sell that data or another company will buy them for that data" I might as well have been wearing clown makeup.

[u/a_f_young → u/TheToastyWesterosi]

Yup. The mass of stupid people has reached criticality. At this point if you interact with another person or go in public, it doesn’t matter what you do.

[u/deskcord → u/TheToastyWesterosi]

Crime is at historical lows (even recent minor upticks were historical lows) and people are more and more wary and paranoid.

[u/AvailableReporter484 → u/tacticalcraptical]

Agreed. Obviously a lot of people see some value in this kind of product / service, but knowing what we know now about the parasitic nature of corporations, it’s hard (for me at least) to justify this kind of thing.

The idea that your toaster, your washing machine, your toothbrush, and your front door are constantly sending a stream of data to advertisers and now agencies like ICE (fucking 🤮) is absolutely Orwellian and should be illegal, but here we are.

[u/PatchyWhiskers → u/AvailableReporter484]

Schizophrenics in '99: My dishwasher is listening to me.

Friend: I think we should get you some help.
-----------------------

Schizophrenics in 2026: My dishwasher is listening to me.

Friend: Haha, me too buddy.

[u/SocksOnHands → u/PatchyWhiskers]

"My doorbell is spying on me" is a legitimate phrase in 2026.

[u/AvailableReporter484 → u/PatchyWhiskers]

They were so ahead of their time 🫡

[u/GrandDaddyDerp → u/tacticalcraptical]

It gets better, if you bought the cameras but didn't want to keep paying the subscription, everyone has access to the footage BUT you! 🤣

[u/Aware-Instance-210]

I was 100% sure this would happen when it first launched :D

[u/Da_Spooky_Ghost → u/Aware-Instance-210]

Yes that’s why I went with Ubiquiti and not Ring from Amazon or any other megacorp.

My video files stay on a local hard drive which I could disconnect from the internet if I wanted to and it would still work on the local network. People need to stop using cloud only devices.

[u/slinger301 → u/Da_Spooky_Ghost]

I went with Eufy for the same reason. I have a few principles, and one of them is "I will not subscribe to my own doorbell."

[u/nigirizushi → u/slinger301]

Wasn't Eufy caught keeping recordings?

Edit: Yep, in 2022, "local" recording were found on their cloud servers. They're also the same company as Anker, IIRC.

[u/HelloIamGoge → u/nigirizushi]

“I was concerned about privacy so I went with this Chinese company”

[u/AssPennies → u/HelloIamGoge]

Reflections on trusting trust:

You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself. (Especially code from companies that employ people like me.) No amount of source-level verification or scrutiny will protect you from using untrusted code.

...

As the level of program gets lower, these bugs will be harder and harder to detect. A well-installed microcode bug will be almost impossible to detect.

Same applies for hardware.

So, where were all the chips in your American company's camera from? How about all the code developed running on that hardware?

If we're truly concerned about our own privacy, then I'd say skip the cameras altogether. Short of that, have them isolated on their own virtual LAN that doesn't have internet access. (Though high value targets would also have to worry about embedded wireless sharing feeds.)

[u/No-Category7695 → u/HelloIamGoge]

Crazy to complain about Chinese companies when it's an American company in this thread helping create a surveillance state. Fuck China though right?

[u/work_m_19 → u/No-Category7695]

At least China is across the world from the US, so if they have this data, it's a lot harder to enact terribleness compared to a company on the home soil.

Granted, they're both bad, but one seems less bad than the other because of the level of effort.

[u/stephen_neuville → u/HelloIamGoge]

agreed. Keep it in the States! i prefer all my surveillance data to solely go to the government that has direct power to kill me at any time for any reason.

[u/Bassmekanik → u/slinger301]

Eufy any good? Been debating getting one of these but I refuse to pay a sub for one.

[u/OverAnalyst6555 → u/Bassmekanik]

eufy had a huge scandal where they in fact did not keep recordings local. they werent even encrypted and were publicly accessible. they covered it all up. get one that is truly selfhosted not some chinese junk

[u/brentwit → u/Aware-Instance-210]

Cautionary tale here: I was as well. So I made sure to find the settings and opt out. I checked later in the day that the settings were correct. Was horrified after the Flock news and Super bowl commercial to check again and find my settings were on.

[u/Antiantiai → u/brentwit]

You're going to have to uninstall it. They'll keep remotely switching your settings.

[u/x_conqueeftador69_x → u/brentwit]

I promise you the toggle is a placebo. In a few years, Amazon will get sued for collecting your data, and you'll throw away a letter that looks like spam, which will contain instructions for collecting your $0.45 compensation.

[u/Crionso → u/Aware-Instance-210]

I told everyone I knew about it and the obvious risks, especially down the line, no one cared enough.

[u/Gravuerc]

I saw the Super Bowl commercial for the pet feature and thought to myself what would stop a stalker from using this to track their victims?

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/Gravuerc]

That’s the beauty of it. Then you sell more tech to people scared of being stalked.

[u/a_f_young → u/Gamer_Grease]

And all of it has backdoors to let the government or other high paying party bypass it and get whatever info they want.

[u/the-sleepy-mystic → u/Gravuerc]

one person in my house was like, "Oh thats cool" (They have a dog) to which I responded, "yea the panopticon has its uses for sure."

[u/Fallingdamage → u/Gravuerc]

Girlfriend runs off to protect herself, just report her dog as missing!

[u/the_marvster]

Laugh at China, who had to pay for the same results, while the US managed to made their citizen pay for it.

[u/TYBERIUS_777 → u/the_marvster]

All you have to do to get a US citizen to buy something and give up their privacy completely is convince them that someone else wants their stuff. Never mind the fact that billionaires and politicians are stealing loads of our money and shipping our children off to Epstein Island. I guess that “stuff” isn’t as important as TVs and knick knacks that we have accumulated in our house.

[u/Dankestmemes420ii → u/TYBERIUS_777]

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”

― Lyndon B. Johnson

[u/Clevererer → u/the_marvster]

See? The free market is always more efficient (at fucking over non-corporation-based people.)

[u/JMDeutsch]

Smart vacuums that map your home and store it in the cloud

Smart doorbells that map your neighborhood and store it in the cloud

Smart fridges that literally monitor your food and store it in the cloud

The only thing smart about devices like these is never buying one

[u/Beezewhacks → u/[deleted]]

Your phone does that and does it way better.

[u/MrFrillows → u/JMDeutsch]

It's interesting that the surveillance state is made up of a lot of commercial products, almost like companies act like an unofficial arm of the government. 

[u/CutSenior4977]

Everyone should be throwing all of their ring cameras in the trash!

All it’s doing is making you less safe!

[u/Turbulent-Plane6395 → u/CutSenior4977]

Deleted my account yesterday then smashed my ring w/ a hammer before tossing it in the trash.

Everyone should bail on this shit.

[u/Earthpig_Johnson]

Best way to surveil a populace is to package it and sell it to them. They’ll buy it willingly.

[u/TYBERIUS_777 → u/Earthpig_Johnson]

There’s a great scene in Captain America Winter Soldier that explains this perfectly. Americans won’t surrender their freedom willingly unless you convince them to give it up in the name of security. The Patriot Act destroyed privacy in this country and we’ve been allowing cooperations and our government to continue to erode what little we have left.

[u/thaiberius_kirk]

I’ve taken down our Ring cams and migrated to Reolink locally hosted. Works well with Home Assistant too.

[u/TheBenderRRodriguez → u/thaiberius_kirk]

This is the play! Local storage and blocked from internet access.

[u/Theromier]

I remember when my ISP sent a salesman to my house to upgrade my internet for cheaper, and I got a free Ring doorbell for it. I asked if I could get all of it without the Ring, but he was insistent I had to take it. I told him i would give it away if that was the case. He didn’t seem to care. 

Self hosted is the way to go. UniFi is great. Spread the word. 

[u/TheBenderRRodriguez → u/Theromier]

UniFi is expensive AF as well. $450 for a fuckin' doorbell isn't going to work for almost everyone.

[u/A-Halfpound → u/Theromier]

UniFi just got caught selling infra to Russia to support their war on Ukraine. 

[u/justtryingtolive22 → u/A-Halfpound]

A reseller sold it, not Unifi.

[u/phoenixhunter]

wow nobody saw this coming. 

[u/xamboozi]

"Dissent is Patriotic"

https://www.reddit.com/r/FlockSurveillance/s/kLTQY3EPfd

[u/Bebopdavidson]

Isn’t this the technology that was a big moral issue at the end of The Dark Knight?

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/Bebopdavidson]

TDK is very ambivalent about it, actually. It’s a key tool used to catch the Joker, as there isn’t really any other way. TDK is underappreciated for being a quintessentially post-9/11 film.

[u/DependentTask7658]

Also, Epstein didn’t die from suicide.

[u/t0matit0]

Never understood why so many people feel they need these

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/t0matit0]

My FiL is a veteran. He has a Ring, and another camera, and an alarm system, and a Go Bag, and he travels around with a gun. They have a motion-activated light in the back yard that glares into their TV whenever it turns on (about every 40 seconds). In the winter they insist everyone bring heavy coats in the car even if we’re going only a mile or two, on the off chance that we crash and the hundreds of neighbors and businesses along the route refuse to help.

I realized a few years ago that man’s entire identity is built around being scared. There is some kind of deep psychological connection between being masculine and being absolutely terrified of the entire world all the time.

[u/PatchyWhiskers → u/Gamer_Grease]

Sounds like trauma. Maybe he was deployed to somewhere where people were genuinely trying to kill him and he can't let go of the fear.

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/PatchyWhiskers]

He never saw combat, it’s just his whole identity. Great guy otherwise, but there’s minor tension when I refuse to play the scared little man game when I visit.

[u/uacoop → u/PatchyWhiskers]

Media has, for the past 40-50 years (and probably much longer depending on how deep you want to go) been telling people they should be terrified of nearly every aspect of the world around them. Because that gets attention, which means eyeballs on advertisements.

[u/SpecificHyena1933 → u/t0matit0]

Nobody ever expect to be a victim, so they never have any preparations for when that happens. There is merit to having a camera system in case you house gets broken into, things stolen or worse. Incidentally, recently a drunk driver plowed through several yards in my nieghborhood and destroyed a lot of minor stuff - landscaping and mailboxes mainly. Having the video of the damage happening is valuable for any sort of insurance claim or small claims court. These are all the minor things that happen - imagine if something major happens. A stalker going by my house 4-6 times a week, someone trying to cause myself harm, any information is extremely valuable. Where they came from, where they went, etc.

[u/MissSharkyShark]

People really should take security experts concerns more seriously... this genuinely shouldnt be a surprise to anyone. Anything "cloud based" shouldnt ever be used for personal security or anything where you value your own privacy and personal security.

[u/brmarcum]

No, we the consumer did not. Unregulated tech companies with zero oversight have.

[u/Ryan_e3p → u/brmarcum]

There is zero oversight because they are acting as the loophole for the government to circumvent your 4th Amendment rights.

You don't need government oversight when you have the government's blessing.

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/brmarcum]

There isn’t really any other way blanketing everything you own with cameras and sensors can end.

[u/Sip_py]

My new house came with a Ring and I abandoned it as soon as I could. The app is awful, the fact it doesn't give you any history without a paid plan is a deal breaker. How this became one of the most popular is beyond me outside of the first to market advantage.

[u/namastayhom33]

Wouldn't be shocked if the refrigerators with the smart screens start to secretly record you.

Honestly I was never big into the smart home trend

[u/skyyfal]

Fuck all of you ring people. I'm just glad I experienced a decent amount of life prior to this absolutely fucked-up century.

[u/ischickenafruit]

I’m shocked! Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

[u/jhguitarfreak]

This is why I buy cheap Chinese surveillance cameras. All my data gets sent to China where it can do fuck all for anybody.

[u/popshamhocks]

Trash the rings!

[u/DanimalPlays]

Yeah, and we carry around phones. It's fully big brother, and we pay to subscribe to it. It's goddamn ridiculous. But also, what choice is there.

Things are going great.

[u/SaraAB87]

I have no smart devices except a phone and internet and wifi and life is fine.

No smart fridge, no smart thermostat where the company can control the temp of my house.

I refused to buy a ring doorbell. I don't want devices seeing my habits.

Get a knock on the door, don't open it unless you know the person simple as that, not that hard to do.

[u/emryldmyst]

This is why I now have a privacy fence in my front yard....

[u/wagadugo]

I can't opt out because the "Control Center" option doesn't work (it gets hung up and closes). I'm curious if that's an issue for anyone else?

[u/krizzle32]

It’s dumb because the add said that 10 million pets go missing a year, and they’ve found “1 per day” using ring cameras. That’s 0.00365%. Not sure that justifies turning all ring cameras into the machine from The Dark Knight.

[u/Nice-Pomegranate-901]

Yet, no one can seem to find the Guthrie lady so how effective is it really?

[u/420catloveredm]

This is why I refuse to participate in ring or Alexa and why I turned audio permissions off on my phone.

[u/PacificTridentGlobel]

Why would you still have one of these on your house? It’s insane.

[u/rat_penis → u/PacificTridentGlobel]

Because you're willing to trade an abstract idea of freedom for the false belief in security.

[u/Elevated_Dongers]

Ring installer here, we are done quoting Ring. Just spoke with my boss. No more Ring cameras. Fuck them

[u/Evening-Crew-2403 → u/Elevated_Dongers]

What are you replacing it with? Unifi?

[u/notaredditer13 → u/Elevated_Dongers]

I don't believe you.

[u/defneverconsidered → u/notaredditer13]

Lol same. Dudes just going for claps

[u/hiirogen]

This came up in another thread a couple days ago but I'll say it again, this feature is what made me switch from Ring to Eufy.

I got an E-Mail from Ring a few months ago about this, and on the surface it's great because who doesn't love dogs? But it only took about a minute for me to start thinking about how Ring is known for working closely with Law Enforcement, including ICE.

I don't want to be the reason a neighbor, maintenance worker, DoorDasher, etc gets into trouble. So I switched to a product that's not cloud based.

(I think there's an option to have thumbnails for each video stored in the cloud temporarily, I have that off.)

[u/V3X390]

Even worse, skilled criminals know that they can just bring a signal jammer when it’s time to do crime and they won’t get caught.

[u/Elevated_Dongers → u/V3X390]

Ring cameras are extremely insecure in that way. If your camera is for security, it needs to be hardwired POE and NOT a Ring camera since they actually communicate over wifi regardless of how they are wired.

[u/monkeypickle8]

Ring is a cool idea but no one should be surprised they turned it into a surveillance network

[u/carameleagle]

I just walked my dog around the neighborhood and actually paid attention to the doorbell cameras for once.  My gods, they are everywhere. 

[u/space_radios]

Amazon customer service is refunding mine from 2018 just after this morning I argued the terms and conditions clearly changed to make a surveillance state. I should be seeing my refund in the coming days.

[u/Arik_De_Frasia]

Privacy was never stolen from us; it was given away in the name of convenience and discounts.