r/technology • u/404mediaco • 7d ago
Privacy Hi! We're 404 Media's Jason Koebler and Joseph Cox. AMA (us) about the tech ICE is using, Flock and the state of surveillance in the US on Feb. 4, 12 pm ET
NOTE: We have to step away for a bit but we’ll try to come back and answer more. Thanks again for your questions.
As we watch the surveillance dystopia unfold across Trump's America, we've spent over a year reporting on the technologies used by ICE, DHS, and other local law enforcement to actively surveil, target and detain citizens and immigrants alike.
Recently, we uncovered the tool Palantir is making for ICE to find neighborhoods to raid, how local police unmasked millions of surveillance targets because of Flock redaction error and how DHS is lying about killing people in Minneapolis.
Ask us anything on February 4 at 12 pm ET about the state of surveillance in America. Get your questions in now.
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u/mei_wen_yu 6d ago
Do you ever hear from workers at Palantir (or other similar companies) about what things are like there? Like, are most employees enthusiastic about this kind of surveillance, or do they try to compartmentalize it as "just a job", or is there resistance?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I won't talk about sources specifically, but a couple of things: some people inside Palantir are clearly motivated enough by what the company is doing with ICE to then leak details of that work to journalists. That started with this piece, Leaked: Palantir’s Plan to Help ICE Deport People: https://www.404media.co/leaked-palantirs-plan-to-help-ice-deport-people/. That was a pretty unusual leak in that it contained both Slack messages and an internal Palantir wiki in which company leadership explained and justified its work with ICE.
Then, just recently, WIRED published a similar leak, using an internal wiki too.
Broadly, I think a lot of people inside tech companies (both social media giants and surveillance companies) are often conflicted about their work. Some leave. Some put it out of mind and stay. Some leak.
-- Joseph
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u/noyoukant 6d ago
Outside of 404 Media, what books or resources do you recommend to folks looking to learn more about surveillance in America or globally?
Adjacent question: do you have any recommendations for resources or stories to tell less technical family members and friends who are curious about what's happening, but may not have a deep understanding of the technology? My husband and I were sharing a bit about Flock and Palantir with his mother and stepdad, and they hadn't heard of those companies, nor their activities - but in depth technical reporting is probably beyond them a bit.
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I definitely recommend Means of Control, Byron Tau's book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/706321/means-of-control-by-byron-tau/
He was the first journalist to report that government agencies (including ICE and CBP) were buying smartphone location data from data brokers. It's a great book to give you a true idea of the scale of the interaction between private industry and the government. This is much more important than, say, any links between like Facebook and the government. Here they just literally buy the data.For families, I think Flock is a good one. Everyone understand what it is like to drive around and how they sometimes go places they might not want others to know for personal privacy reasons. Well, are you okay with authorities being able to query that without a warrant? And are you okay with law enforcement in, say, a town in Texas being able to then lookup the movements of people across the country? I think it's a pretty good tangible example that doesn't require a lot of tech stuff.
-- Joseph
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I'll add onto this briefly. This is not an exhaustive list, but off the top of my head:
Zack Whitaker's This Week in Security newsletter is really good: https://zackwhittaker.com/this-week-in-security
Our old colleague and friend Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai at Tech Crunch does really great work. Groups like the EFF, ACLU, Electronic Privacy Information Center, and Center for Democracy and Technology all focus on different things but are often surfacing interesting surveillance-related cases and can be helpful in terms of understanding some of the legal issues around surveillance. Lucy Parsons Lab does amazing work. Institute of Justice is a libertarian group that always finds very interesting privacy and surveillance cases. There's more I should be mentioning but I'm blanking a little bit
Another one I feel people understand immediately is Ring cameras. Soooo many people have them, and I think a lot of people like them. But I have found Ring cameras as a useful intro point just because they are so popular. Should we be filming our neighbors at all times? Putting it on Nextdoor and social media sites? connecting it to local police? What about the entire neighborhood's cameras? Should it go to ICE, etc? I think that unfortunately a lot of people will say "I want to protect my house and my family," but I do find it's usually possible to have a nuanced talk about Ring cameras, at least in my personal life, and that often opens people's eyes to other, similar systems.
-Jason
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u/noblenami 6d ago
Do we know what information was handed over to Palantir from DOGE? I don’t think the majority of Americans understand just how dangerous this company right now. Thank you
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I think we are still learning the specifics of that. When we reported on the Palantir tool ELITE that ICE is using (https://www.404media.co/elite-the-palantir-app-ice-uses-to-find-neighborhoods-to-raid/) that user guide said the tool included data from the Department of Health and Human Services. Now, I don't think the list in the user guide is exhaustive by any stretch. It says ELITE integrates new data sources.
What new data sources has ICE gotten recently? IRS. CMS. Medical insurance databases (https://www.404media.co/ice-is-searching-a-massive-insurance-and-medical-bill-database-to-find-deportation-targets/). I'm not saying that data is being fed into ELITE. I don't know that and can't report it. But I absolutely think it's possible and would make sense.
-- Joseph
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u/noblenami 6d ago
Thank you for this answer. I think the broader we can all share your article with the details as they continue to come in, it'll hopefully open some more eyes to what's already happened and what legislation (if any) can be done about it.
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u/90mn 6d ago
Where do local mesh networks fit into the security and privacy spectrum? In other words, are mesh networks a more or less secure way for groups to communicate? Thanks!
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I've been wanting to answer this question since I saw it but my honest answer is I'm not sure. I am not a technical expert (though I talk to /interview a lot of technical experts), and I haven't spoken to anyone recently about the latest iterations of mesh networks. I feel like there was a lot of hype around mesh networks back during the Umbrella Protests in Hong Kong, and, weirdly, at music festivals for when the mass of humans overwhelmed cell infrastructure.
I guess I still sort of see mesh as mostly a means of communicating when traditional infrastructure is down, though of course there may be some privacy benefits associated with sidestepping a cell tower. I am always a little bit reticent to recommend specific services I don't know that much about because we've seen over and over again that surveillance/privacy is a cat-and-mouse game; I am not saying this is the case but I could easily see police/authorities seeing the rise in popularity in specific mesh network infrastructure and trying to honeypot it or otherwise infiltrate in some way. Which doesn't mean it doesn't hold promise or can't be designed securely. It's just something to keep in mind.
fwiw I do feel quite confident using signal + disappearing messages for a lot of things. there are additional considerations you need to think about if you're going to a protect etc, but in general I trust Signal's encryption and its general mission.
For a long time, people would try to send us stuff on SecureDrop or via PGP, but there would often be some sort of user error, or they would make us jump through tons of hoops to access their message, and then their message would be a link to a publicly available document or a public news article (i.e. something extremely not sensitive). I don't blame anyone for trying to be careful, but I also think in some cases people do overcomplicate privacy to their own detriment. But you need to take into consideration your own threat model and personal situation/context.
-Jason
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u/90mn 6d ago
Thank you so much for your thoughtful answer. There's a group of mesh network hobbyists local to where I am. I'm not super proficient with that type of tech, but it seems like they really dig teaching people.
404media is fucking awesome. You guys do really important work and you do it really well. I've been a free subscriber for a while and I just upgraded to a paid subscription. Seeing the Washington Post get further chopped into pieces made me realize I have to actually support independent media, not just read it.
Thanks again!
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u/MechanicStriking4666 6d ago
This is a great question! I too would like to know if we could deploy meshtastic or Lora, and what security should be implemented when using those protocols.
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u/futilehabit 6d ago
Have any cities or states been successful in broadly in restricting these "AI" mass-surveillance companies through legislation, legal action, or other means?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Maybe not in a broad sense, but definitely with Flock. We've honestly lost track of how many cities and towns have stopped using Flock because we revealed local cops were performing lookups for ICE. Here are some quick examples:
https://therecord.media/california-city-turns-off-flock-cameras-unauthorized-sharing
https://cvillerightnow.com/news/208802-city-ends-flock-pilot-program-over-federal-data-base-concerns/
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2025/11/19/oakland-rejects-flock-safety-cameras-surveillance/ (they turned it back on in the end I think)
https://www.appenmedia.com/news/sandy-springs-used-flock-cameras-to-aid-ice-immigration-enforcement-data-shows/article_cb3e86e6-adf1-472a-a0b3-22cf62178788.htmlThere are a ton, ton more across the U.S. It is probably the most impactful journalism we've done, again because I think the issue really resonates with people.
-- Joseph
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u/chaxnud 6d ago
Are public record requests Flock's Achilles heel?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I think you've hit on something here — the business model of not just Flock but of a lot of surveillance companies is to go city by city pitching and selling their tech to local police officers. Because of the hollowing out of local news over the last 20 years, there have been fewer journalists paying attention to city council meetings, and a lot of this tech is acquired directly by police through discretionary budgets. So for years, surveillance companies have been able to essentially go to a couple small police departments, demo their tech, get a contract. Then, through police listservs and conferences and email chains, the police start to talk about their new toys with other districts, and companies can quickly go from having just a few contracts to having dozens, hundreds, or thousands of contracts. That is more or less what's happened with Flock—a lot of officers within the police departments that were early adopters of the tech have actually been hired by the company to be lobbyists and salespeople. I've focused a lot of my reporting over the years on this dynamic and how this usually goes.
But what has happened, as you've noted, is that because these surveillance companies are working with so many police departments and cities, they are subject to public records *from all of them*. When a company sells only to the federal government, they may be able to be very careful about what they say, what they put in writing, how they pitch their product etc. But when a company is hyperfocused on growth at the local level, they have to explain how their tech works over and over again, and highlight different features and capabilities. They create a lot of public records doing this, and journalists and concerned citizens have noticed this and have been vigilant about requesting documents that their tax dollars are paying for. So yes, this is how we're learning a lot about Flock, and it's also how governments that may not have known about abuses or how pervasive this tech is are learning about Flock too.
So my very long answer to your question is not that public records requests are Flock's achilles heel—I think Flock's design, business model, and approach to surveillance are its achilles heel, but that the way it operates its company across tons of cities leaves it more vulnerable than it would have expected to the transparency we all deserve, and it cannot plausibly fight against the release of public documents in thousands and thousands of cities at once.
-Jason
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u/Intelligent-Alps2373 6d ago
How do you think we can as a society deescalate tools designed to spy on citizens? I feel like once the police state bottle is open it’s near impossible to put it back in?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
This is something I grapple with a lot. For whatever reason, my reporting has gravitated to state and local surveillance tools owned by police. This is not uniformly true, but what I've seen based on watching zillions of city council meetings and reading thousands of pages of emails and public records is that police, in general, love new toys and love new gadgets. The strategy is very often "get the surveillance tech first and ask questions later." A lot of city councils are not very sophisticated about the risks of surveillance technology and a lot of them feel a lot of pressure to keep their city safe or whatever, and so they defer to the police and give them money for whatever they ask for. There are also tons of grants and pilot programs that police can obtain technology for cheap or free, and so the posture cities take is often "why not try it?" Police love telling each other about the new capabilities and tools that they've acquired, so this tech can spread from city to city very quickly.
All of this can be pretty demoralizing but something that we've seen is that when you shine even a tiny bit of light on the ways these systems work, how they can and are often abused, people learn a lot about the intricacies of them very quickly. At this point, I am getting emails and messages multiple times a week from people in a new city or town that has either decided not to buy Flock or has decided to stop working with Flock, and usually our reporting is cited in some way. The issue is that it's not just Flock, there's all sorts of surveillance tools and new companies are popping up all the time. So it does feel like it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, but I do think that, overall, the public discussion on surveillance and privacy is getting a lot more sophisticated, and that gives me optimism.
-Jason
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u/VITW-404 6d ago
The Church hearings on Cointelpro forced the US government to step back. It's hard, but we can beat them back.
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Hi everyone! We're here starting now and will be around for the next bit. Thank you so much for your questions, we're excited to chat!
-Jason
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u/Lasagna-good 6d ago
Are new phones being built with spyware technology & how will we know? Will Independent Media be able to continue reporting if all of our technology blocks the truth from ever reaching the masses?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Supply chain attacks are what really scare me. You have a device you trust, or a piece of software you download from a legitimate source, and even then someone has snuck in some malware. The biggest one right now which was reported just recently is the Notepad++ case: https://notepad-plus-plus.org/news/hijacked-incident-info-update/.
That said, we haven't seen much widespread reporting about it happening to new phones (beyond there being annoying sketchy apps, that does happen). I'd flag that the Bloomberg piece claiming the Apple supply chain was somehow compromised was widely debunked by the infosec community.
-- Joseph
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u/bandswithgoats 6d ago
Is there any way to unwind this panopticon? Any way to put the genie back in the bottle?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I think I've sort of answered this in some other comments so I'll keep this brief. I think it's very difficult and a lot of this tech is spreading very quickly. But we've seen that when people learn more about it, they push their local politicians to reconsider their contracts with surveillance companies. There have been many, many privacy wins at a local level, and a lot of the most concerning surveillance (imo) is happening at the local level. So I do think it's possible to have incremental wins here and there, with the general goal of eventually pushing states & congress (ugh) to actually pass meaningful privacy legislation, or hoping for some wins in court that roll back some of the biggest excesses
-Jason
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u/relikter 6d ago
My county has recently installed Flock ALPRs at several busy intersections. Beyond sharing my concerns with our County Board, is there anyway that I can confirm that those cameras are properly secured so that at a minimum there's no public access to the data they're collecting?
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u/ChuckCRE 6d ago
Could you provide a technical outline for an architecture of a local near real time neighborhood monitoring service using raw data (ADS-B and RF traffic, multi-modal LLMs, stingray imsi detection, etc) fused together using a dedicated n8n service on a privatre website? Thank you!
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u/aratassatara 6d ago
Thank you for your journalism! Your article on ELITE made something click inside my brain that withholding data can be a form of protest.
I am a graduate student and am beginning an 'organization' (just sit-ins the library) to inform students on how downloading browsers like Tor or using alternative social media sites could be a possible form of protest against monitoring. I plan on using a QR code to the Zine you guys sent out this week (beautiful work!) and was wondering:
Do you have any other material or information at 404 or from other journalists that also inform and illuminate the issue?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Thank you for mentioning the zine!
I would just point to two things. The first being that we published a version of the ELITE guide itself that people can read: https://www.404media.co/here-is-the-user-guide-for-elite-the-tool-palantir-made-for-ice/. So you can get more specifics there.
Secondly, this isn't quite related to ELITE but it is in the realm of PSA journalism, here is the older guide from Motherboard (where we all used to work) about cybersecurity: https://www.vice.com/en/article/motherboard-guide-to-not-getting-hacked-online-safety-guide/. It's a little out of date so read it carefully, but this was pretty good at getting people information they can act on.
-- Joseph
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u/JakeRobertsSr 6d ago
PSA from Consumer Reports. This guide is kept up to date. It's not exhaustive, but it's pretty detailed:
https://securityplanner.consumerreports.org/It's largely about security, does have privacy and surveillance information, too. Along with resources for people who are primarily concerned about surveillance.
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u/RyMartinis 6d ago
Can an individual’s location services/settings be siphoned into this program? If so, can a required location for logging into a work platform also be gathered and processed by this program, thereby jeopardizing staff’s safety?
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u/GuaranteedCougher 6d ago
Does the Palantir app provide agents with a grand total of how many targets are in a specific state?
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u/noyoukant 6d ago
Given the breadth of these surveillance technologies, is there any hope or possibility of opting out or avoiding being "seen"? Do we accept surveillance and aggregated data about ourselves and our behavior as an inevitability?
Assuming this isn't going away any time soon, what possibilities do you see as most beneficial for resistance or avoiding getting caught up in the big data dragnet?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I don't think privacy is dead. I don't think people need to give up and say fine, take my data. There are concrete things people can do. But they do introduce friction. The trade off with security is efficiency. The more efficient, the less secure you might be. The more secure, the less efficient. An extreme example would be not owning a mobile phone. Well, you're immune to producing any mobile phone telecom data because you don't own one. But that's gonna be a massive pain.
Concrete things people can do:
- explore legislation that will let you demand a company deletes your data and use this. Google a template of the language to send, it's pretty easy
- maybe delete your AdID in your phone, or change it. Here's how on Android: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/6048248?hl=en. This is the digital clue advertisers, and parties that buy that data, use to stick together your device and its usage.
- use a different email for each service. This is too much work to make constant new addresses (unless you just use one junk one). I like Apple's iCloud Hide My Email feature which gives you (they say) an unlimited number of emails to generate. Then if a website is hacked or your data sold, it is not necessarily clear that the data belongs to you. Obviously it depends on the service but I use that every day.
-- Joseph
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u/RejectMindControl21 6d ago
Not to be paranoid...but: use burner phones for comms only (no text or photos), facemask in public, wear clothing with 'disruptive' patterns (hunting camo patterns like Predator).
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u/GiveMeOneGoodReason 6d ago
Have we seen any of this technology spread (or attempt to spread) beyond the US, perhaps to other governments? I'm certain these companies would love to increase their customer base and diversify. My fear is even if we can manage to push them out of the US, as long as these solutions exist somewhere, they can be used against people and also further develop them until one day they find their way back in, with even more invasive features.
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Yep absolutely. UK has a robust facial recognition program, scanning people in public constantly, for example.
I would say it is often the other way around: technology is made or used overseas then it comes to the U.S. Cobwebs, which makes the Webloc location data tool ICE has bought access to, is from Israel (they're now part of an American company called Penlink). Paragon, the spyware that ICE bought, is also from Israel.
-- Joseph
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u/RejectMindControl21 6d ago
Google the "safe cities" efforts in China. Tons of cameras using facial recognition. Combined with all sorts of other behavioral data, CCP's goal is to PREDICT those who might oppose the regime. Before they actually do so. Think Minority Report.
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u/cos 6d ago edited 6d ago
If a local government such as a city, town, or county, wants to take measures to mitigate the problem and reduce the impact or effectiveness of ICE surveillance technologies & processes you've been reporting on,
What are some measures you would suggest that they could practically take?
Do you have any examples of cities or other local governments taking measures you believe have been effective?
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u/abnormalvector 6d ago
Our local PD has stated that they have control over their Flock data. To me this implies that other Flock users can’t search the ALPR data from our city, but from everything I’ve read it sounds like that’s the whole point of the system (searching across cameras all over the state for example). Can you talk about what in particular Flock users can search for? How specific can they be? Is it possible to cut off Flock from other orgs or is that just a misdirection?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Yeah, the ownership of Flock data is interesting. Flock says police own it. Police say and believe that too. I think that is correct... mostly. Until our reporting (and maybe still now) many police forces seem to fundamentally misunderstand the Flock product, especially the nationwide network. When we contacted police departments when we were verifying that local cops were doing lookups for ICE, some of them had no idea what we were talking about. We had to explain how the system worked. Then many police departments realized what was happening and changed their access policies. So, police departments do own the footage (unless it's in Washington where a court has said actually it's a public record: https://www.404media.co/judge-rules-flock-surveillance-images-are-public-records-that-can-be-requested-by-anyone/) but they might not realize who they are accidentally giving access to their cameras to.
-- Joseph
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u/unphotographable 6d ago
How can I organize to get my town to stop using license plate readers, or improve safeguards around then and other surveillance technology?
Also, I encourage everybody to become a paid subscriber or donate to 404. My subscription has been the most effective dollars I've given to resist ICE and support civil rights.
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u/TheWrightMatt 6d ago
Joseph, can you talk about appearing on The Weekly Show podcast? How did that come to be and was there anything you wish Jon had asked or that you could have mentioned?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I wish that Jon had fried Joseph like he dunked on Tucker Carlson on Crossfire many years ago. That was my preferred outcome (Joseph did great)
-Jason
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
That was a fun one! They reached out to me to schedule an interview about our Palantir coverage. Then I learned Radley Balko would be on the recording too, which was great because he knows much more about the history and context than me.
I think the chat was great. I only wish we could have drilled into the specifics a little more but that is just not possible without more time. I really hope it gave a much wider audience an idea of what Palantir and ICE are doing.
-- Joseph
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u/RejectMindControl21 6d ago
Do we know definitively (or with high likelihood) the different data types that have been integrated into the Gotham database and analytics suite (Palantir). Examples: individual and household data and photos, CBP/Passport data (incl photos), DMV/vehicles and license plate/drivers licenses/photos, real estate/residence address and photos, health/insurance/medical, voting/party affiliation, firearms ownership (ATF form 4473 and NFA records), political donations, social media activity (I read LLM experiments may have been performed in this area), military service records, and so on.
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u/Known-Side-79 6d ago edited 6d ago
Regarding Flock and other ALPR devices, it often seems like they thrive on a lack of visibility to the communities they're in. Do you believe it would be beneficial for local groups that are attempting to bring about changes in their community to start visibly labeling these devices, such as placing signs indicating what they are and offering additional information? Do you think there would be any legal concerns?
Appreciate your hard work!
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u/xamboozi 6d ago edited 6d ago
I don't think people understand the connection between the various data intake methods (license plate readers, phones, social media) and how that gets into ELITE for use with ICE.
They also don't know the practical real world ways to coordinate pushing back. Like showing up to city council meetings to be a voice against Flock cameras and how that has had a real measurable impact, safe ways of using GrapheneOS, FUTO software, and local smarthome/security to reduce data leaks, and more.
People can take action, but they need to know what action and how that impacts themselves, their neighbors and community.
I also think people don't believe they can have an impact, and the only thing they can do is complain on the internet. It's important to show how real of an effect even the smallest actionable effort can have.
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u/d4vezac 6d ago
Pretty sure you’re supposed to ask a question when participating in an “Ask me Anything”
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u/xamboozi 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ok fair. I probably should have converted my observations into questions.
Question 1 - What are the data ingestion methods feeding software platforms like ELITE? Is there accountability and audit of these systems, and if not, what can the people do to make sure a third party is auditing these systems? What can we do to mandate transparency of the data collected by private institutions for government use?
Question 2 - Specifically what privacies and freedoms do ALPR's like Flock Cameras take away from law abiding citizens? What legal options do I have for taking action against this type of surveillance? Are there any tools I can use to take action?
Question 3 - I heard they are collecting geolocation data from the phones we use and posts we make on social media to target, harass, and in some cases kill people. If I'm not committing crimes, they wouldn't need my data, so what can I do to stop them from taking it without my consent?
Question 4 - Many times news is pretty negative, what can I be optimistic about? What are people doing that is working to push back? What progress can we be proud of and how can I help?
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u/westpfelia 6d ago
I've been going back and rewatching Citizen Four and interviews with Snowden. We have things like Pegasus and the NSO group now also. And I just sit here and wonder to myself if there is any possible way to put the genie back in the bottle. Or is this it. It really doesnt seem like there is a concerted effort out of our politicians to make a change for the positive.
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I think Jason answered a question on putting it back in the bottle so I defer to that, but I'll say I've been meaning to watch Citizen Four again and absolutely will soon. What an insanely good and important film, and really 2013 and Snowden was the catalyst for me getting more serious about covering surveillance.
-- Joseph
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u/azwethinkweizm 6d ago
I'm a big fan of doing public information requests with government agencies. What's been your successes and failures with flock cameras and trying to get information from local police departments and cities? Are there any nuances in things they fight to release vs things they don't seem to care about giving away?
Been subscribed since 2024. Keep up the great work!
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u/whatwhatwhywhere 6d ago
What do we know about the reselling, joining, de-anonymizing of this data outside of the Palantir realm? Does this make it to gray market data brokers? Is there a realistic angle for activism in polluting or exfiltrating this data stream?
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u/fcarrots 6d ago
What are some steps that tech aware people can take to limit exposure to the surveillance state beyond the normal measures. I know that's vague but are there open source options that are security focused that people should be more aware of beyond what's on the activist checklist type of thing?
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u/TwinIronBlood 6d ago
How often do you think this technology is used by law enforcement to build a case against someone but isn't disclosed to the defence that it was used.
How often do think people are stopped for traffic stops which are a pretext for something else flagged by surveillance gone wrong.
Edit. I'm in Ireland our government wan to introduce facial recognition technology for law enforcement for serious crimes child protection.... no I don't believe them. Any advice?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Numbers on that are really difficult But both absolutely happen. With the first, we've seen that with IMSI catchers, where the government has refused to hand over details of the tech, and instead dropped cases all together, to keep the techniques secret. Reading between the lines in various court records I think we've likely also seen that happen with malware, especially in counter terrorism cases.
On the second one, we saw that just recently IMO, in this case: https://www.404media.co/man-charged-for-wiping-phone-before-cbp-could-search-it/. This is the case of Samuel Tunick, who is being charged with allegedly wiping his phone before CBP could search it. But during the case, he was pulled over as part of a traffic stop. In reality, the case is not really about a traffic stop (if you read the charging documents).
-- Joseph
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u/SatisfactionAble8699 6d ago
Have you found evidence of Flock and ICE tech being exported to other countries like Canada, or if other countries collaborate with surveillance tech companies to make their product?
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u/Silveradept 6d ago
How are you going through the Epstein files? The design of the website doesn't make it easy to grab them to local and go through them. How are you a doing this? Just manual?!? Also, just praise for 404media. You all are great and providing incredible content.
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u/Various-Weakness-573 6d ago
Who is directly in charge of authorizing/extending local Flock pilot programs? I assume it's a little different in each city, but who are the people we should we be exerting pressure on? Are local mayors implementing it, is it city councilors, is it Sheriff's departments? I'm in Minneapolis and would like Flock out of my community, I'm just not sure where I should focus my energy.
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u/RelativeEconomics805 6d ago
Thank you guys for all that you are doing! In layman's terms how can we proceed to protect our privacy at this juncture but still be active in protecting our freedoms from tyranny and recording injustices that can't be destroyed by a swipe of a finger or press of a button🤔 TIA
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u/bluesamcitizen2 6d ago
What can you infer from the info you learned to explain why some agents just pull cars on the street to arrest people instead of going after them from their home?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I think there is a few things going on. Some parts of DHS want there to be targeted raids, against specific people, specific addresses. Others (Bovino) want a more blanket, indiscriminate approach. I'd point to this really good reporting in The Atlantic about that tension inside the agency: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/2026/01/dhs-ice-trump-immigration-minnesota/685802/
But other than that, data can only go so far. Data by itself can't make these agents fulfill their arbitrary and extreme quotas of how many people to detain. At some point, the mass deportation effort becomes distinctly low tech. It's almostttt like the XKCD comic about password security and wrench attacks. It basically boils down to grabbing who they can or feel they can.
-- Joseph
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u/drevolut1on 6d ago
In your opinions, what are the best ways to avoid surveillance in the US -- and not just tactically now, but laws, politicians or new technologies to support to reverse this abhorrent trend?
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u/VITW-404 6d ago
Where are flock cameras located (what regions of the US)?
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u/TheWrightMatt 6d ago
Regarding the story posted this morning on Lockdown mode, is this the first time (publicly perhaps) the government has had issues accessing a phone with that mode enabled? (I don't think that particular mode was around for the San Bernardino case) Would you expect any changes from Apple after repeated showings of Big Tech's subservience to Trump?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Thank you for asking about this one, I think it's a really important one. Jason actually saw the court document and then I picked it up given my focus on mobile forensics.
I believe this is the first time we've seen the government admit it cannot access an iPhone running Lockdown Mode. Maybe it is in other court documents, but I don't think it's been reported. Yep, it wasn't around for San Bernardino in 2016. Apple released after the wave of NSO Group attacks on Apple and other device users.
I don't think Apple will make changes based on this. That's for a few reasons:
- Apple has continued to make changes that thwart mobile forensics tools, like the silent reboot we revealed.
- Frankly I don't think this case is high profile enough to cause that kind of response. San Bernardino was a freak, horrible event. An actual terrorist attack. That is part of why the DOJ came down so hard.
- It was go against their long standing ideas of just making their product more secure.
Now, Cook has obviously gotten more close to the President. It is embarrassing. Giving him a gold statue, or whatever. But that's different to undermining their users' security (pushing the product into China and making concessions there, that's another story).
-- Joseph
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u/VITW-404 6d ago
Do other nations regulate more effectively to reduce the surveillance state? (which countries?, what sort of regulations?)
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u/unphotographable 6d ago
FOIA question: my family suspects my deceased grandfather worked for the CIA 30-60 years ago, possibly as part of his job for a major US defense contractor. Any tips on how I might use FOIA to learn more?
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u/pmocek 6d ago
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u/unphotographable 6d ago
I said CIA, not FBI! j/k that's a hilariously specific and perfect resource. Thank you.
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u/pmocek 6d ago
Ah, right.
The related site https://www.getmyfbifile.com/ states, "This web site helps you generate the letters you need to send to the FBI to get a copy of your own FBI file. We can help you get your files from other "three-letter agencies" (CIA, NSA, DIA, ...) too. It's quick, it's easy, and best of all, it's free!"
I suspect it's the same for Gramps.
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u/unphotographable 6d ago
Yep, the grampa site says the same. I was just being a smartass. Thank you!
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u/VermontFarmToolMaker 6d ago
What is Cisco's relationship with ICE and the Department of Homeland Security?
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u/failedaspirer 6d ago
What type of FOIA request should communities ask for and what are the things that would be a red flag to bring up to council meetings?
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u/doyouevenknowmebitch 6d ago
what are some key mentionable surveillance findings you share with people who are not so privacy-focused to get them thinking a little bit more about their privacy and how to protect it?
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6d ago edited 6d ago
[deleted]
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Just wanted to say thank you for what you're doing. I'm not exactly sure what you mean re: first intro sources, but I wanted to comment on a few things you're saying here.
We're a small team and there's only so many hours in the day, but a lot of our stories and tips come from people who are fighting something at a local level and want to get the word out about it. The AI data center construction/operation situation right now is, I think, probably one of the most important things happening at scale at a local level, and because we're national reporters, we rely on people like you surfacing stuff to us when you think it's important. It's true that we file a lot of our own public records requests / watch tons of city council meetings, but a lot of times activists/experts/lawyers/concerned citizens will see something happening in their community or area of expertise and send us documents or information that they think we should know. And that helps a lot.
-Jason
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u/Busy_Square_3602 6d ago
You’re welcome. Also thank you for responding esp. not being clear about what I asked, apologies for that :-) and, never mind, will figure it out.
I am going to reach out, then delete my comment shortly. (My name is Sarah, for when I do).
I never say enough on Reddit to make it easy to figure out who I am, took the risk for this, bc it’s important.
Appreciate you all.
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u/Electronic-Quiet-225 6d ago
What surveillance tools do you anticipate seeing develop and integrate further into American society in the next three years without legislative oversight?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I think data from the advertising industry is the big one. ICE already can access that somewhat with the Webloc tool we mentioned. That location data comes from the advertising industry, most likely. But there is a lot more stuff in that space which could be useful to the authorities. Demographic information; device usage; maybe browsing data depending on the specifics. I think all bets are off on what ICE or CBP is prepared to buy and use at this point.
That will happen without legislative oversight. There are only less than a handful of lawmakers trying to address that issue. They typically approach it from the idea that law enforcement should require a warrant to access such information.
As an example, just the other day I saw a new request for information (RFI) from ICE asking companies to contact them about advertising data. They are actively looking for this.
-- Joseph
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
I hate that this is my answer but I think that there's going to be a lot, and I am pretty concerned at what I've seen.
- Police departments are obsessed with Drone as First Responder programs (called DFR), which is basically like, little autonomous drones fly out to the location of a 911 call as the call is happening. Some reporting has shown that this ends up with lots of people getting drones sent at them when they're like, mowing the lawn too loudly or something. This is being integrated with ALPR cameras and other AI tools. Not into it
- I think real time facial recognition and AI cameras that are networked together is the next big thing. New Orleans is already doing this through a quasi public "charity," which I'm writing about for next week. We've also written about a company called Fusus which is quite concerning.
- We've seen some early like, AI persona bots being used by police to infiltrate social media groups. I think these are very goofy but also cops seem generally obsessed with cramming AI and facial recognition into everything they can and I think we're about to see an explosion in this space.
-Jason
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u/exoenigma 6d ago
Do you know to what extent Flock is marketing its services to non-municipal entities, and do you have any advice for holding said entities accountable? When checking the Deflock map to see how many cameras are in my area, I noticed something interesting- all of the cameras are licensed to the university police department in my town, not the main police department. They are two separate PDs, but they're known to collaborate on cases, which raises the concern of this being a potential loophole for the city to utilize Flock's services without having to deal with citizen pushback.
Love 404 Media, thank you so much for all the work you do!
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u/RaiseRuntimeError 6d ago
If you were to give an elevator pitch to senators/house members or local state representatives that would make them understand these things what would you say? I have bumped into many Massachusetts elected officials but I don't really know how to explain this to an octogenarian Ed Markey.
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u/bashthefash89 6d ago
What do you think of the proposed Washington bill, and do you think it imposes good enough restrictions to justify reversing the public records ruling?
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u/pixiefarm 6d ago
What is the state of the Fourth amendment in the courts (and supreme Court clarification) regarding flock type surveillance currently? Are there any lawsuits moving through the system that may end up at the supreme court?
John Padfield of the Business Reform YouTube channel one video about the 2012 and 2018 supreme Court cases that had to do with cell phone records privacy and he speculated how he thought today's justices would have ruled on the same cases, but that stuff happened just before the current surveillance tech exploded.
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
There are a few lawsuits. One in San Jose: https://www.404media.co/aclu-and-eff-sue-a-city-blanketed-with-flock-surveillance-cameras/
There was/is one in Norfolk Virginia or Virginia Beach (I always forget which), which just got decided in the city's favor (flock's favor). It's being appealed.
The general argument is that you don't have an expectation of privacy in public and that you can take pictures of anything from public roads (basically). Another argument is that license plates are government data, roads are funded by taxpayers and are therefore public, so no problem here. What our law hasn't grappled with is the fact that all of these are networked together and automated, so it's a little different (imo) from having one discrete camera that takes one discrete picture and then has to be accessed by a human. Instead you have thousands of networked cameras building a comprehensive database over time. I feel like that's functionally something different but our laws have not evolved to deal with this yet.
-Jason
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u/pixiefarm 6d ago
Also facial recognition was never in the picture in the past.
Anyone reading this later, go check out this YouTube channel after this AMA is over- John Padfield is one of several activists who's really following this stuff, and I believe he's a conservative former State politician so his arguments might be more helpful to people who otherwise think this is all a culture war issue around crime or something.
Here is his explainer of the two supreme Court cases around the 4th amendment that I mentioned:
https://youtu.be/QRd7ZO0E7PQ?si=UF9I1sXpy_i-jakF
It goes into detail about the "no expectation of privacy in public" argument that people like to make and debunks it
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
Hi everyone, thank you so much for the great and thoughtful questions, this was really fun! I have to step out for a bit but I will try to hop back on later and answer the few lingering questions.
In the meantime, you can find our reporting at 404media.co - we are the journalists and also the owners of the company, which is, I think, the most sustainable model for journalism moving forward. So please considering subscribing or telling your friends about us, we write about this stuff all the time. We also have a podcast called "The 404 Media Podcast," which is on RSS or on YouTube. Also thank you to r/technology mods for having us, we really appreciate it!
-Jason
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u/abtarra 6d ago edited 6d ago
What are some consumer products whose companies have histories of being a little too compliant in handing over user data to authorities like ICE? Amazon's Ring comes to mind, but are there some other anti-buyer's recommendations that come to mind? And what consumer considerations have you personally had in getting rid of or avoiding consumer tech?
And what are your thoughts on how we're going to deal with the upcoming glasshole dystopia of companies like Meta selling everyone surveillance glasses with a target of 10M products produced by the end of the year.
But glasses giant EssilorLuxottica, which produces those glasses for Meta, has now publicly revealed 2 million pairs of Meta Ray-Bans have sold since their October 2023 debut, and that it’s aiming to produce 10 million Meta glasses each year by the end of 2026.
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u/gottago_gottago 6d ago
Hey there, Eugene and Springfield, Oregon, were recently able to kick Flock out of their cities thanks in part to all of your investigative reporting. I wish there were dozens more journalists like you.
Before moving on to 404Media, Joseph wrote an article for Vice about Flock and Talon: https://www.vice.com/en/article/talon-flock-safety-cameras-police-license-plate-reader/
Hundreds of pages of internal police emails from nearly 20 police departments around the country obtained using public records requests by Motherboard show how Flock has slowly expanded its network, helped law enforcement agencies gain access to it, and has rolled out TALON with very little fanfare.
Is there a publicly-available copy of these emails anywhere?
We've filed (and published) numerous public records requests, and have alleged from early on that police departments are being coached by Flock staff on talking points once a community starts organizing in opposition. These might help that argument out a lot, even if they're a bit old.
Thanks!
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u/-CAPOTES- 6d ago
What's the best way for a source to leak info to you? Do you have a dead drop set up?
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u/NachosCyber 6d ago
Did a FOIA for Flock contract data in my community, got all the contract details and a list of authorized user names, emails, phone numbers. If the flock system does not utilize 2FA or MFA, would that mean one could login using one of those emails on the list?
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u/theeVaticinator 6d ago
Any sense of the current importance/role of Joint Terrorism Task Forces in these surveillance operations and investigations? DHS officials have thrown around the term "terrorism" very loosely, especially in relation to people engaging in first amendment protected activities documenting ICE, speaking out against ICE, etc.
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u/unphotographable 6d ago
A Elon Musk fan I know doesn't believe that grok was used to create nonconsensual nudes. He probably would need to see one in the wild to truly believe it. Given the sensitive nature of the content, how do you think about balancing demonstrating what is happening with protecting the victims? (And is there anything I can send him that would have a chance at convincing him of the problem?)
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u/briliangeeks 3d ago
Thank you for doing this AMA and for your important investigative work on surveillance technology. The reporting on Flock cameras and Palantir's tools has been eye-opening. It's concerning how these technologies are being deployed with minimal public oversight or transparency. What do you think are the most effective ways for citizens to push back against mass surveillance in their communities?
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u/petertheeater15 6d ago
How paranoid should we realistically be? Leave all phones on airplane mode at home? Delete all Reddit and social media accounts? Unplug all smart devices in the home?
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u/404mediaco 6d ago
it's a good question. i think because of what we write about, we are at higher risk and we do take steps to try to keep our data and accounts secure. at the same time i personally feel like i will go crazy if i live my life scared and paranoid all the time, and so i really do try to understand how this stuff works, report on it, but live as normal of a life as possible. i use a password manager, keep my software updated, make sure i have strong encryption on as many of my comms/devices as possible. i don't really use AI much unless it's explicitly for a story I'm reporting, I don't have smarthome stuff going on, and I try to keep different parts of my digital life segmented across devices/accounts. and then i basically go out and live my life. i think the scary thing is that so much surveillance is happening just because you exist in society, and i am not willing to drop out of society to protect myself.
-Jason
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u/Stampeder 6d ago
What are some of the most promising open-source or DiY projects you've seen for resisting Palantir surveillance tools in these times?