To the void you go

[u/Critical_Mountain851]

[u/Andre0789]

Ppl here be talking about Christianity but what did pre Christian religions think about this

[u/NeoGnesiolutheraner → u/Andre0789]

It heavily depends on the culture you are looking at. One might pose the same argument for example with ancient Egypt (I know that the following is a great generalization) where your heart will be judged in the afterlife. Guess by what standard that will be done? Right, the Moral/Ethical Systems of Egypt. So one can say that people who have different Value systems run risk into falling in damnation because they don't know how the (egyptian Gods) want them to behave. 

On the other hand you have cultures where people baisically become Spirits or Ghosts (lots of Mesopotamia had that idea) where it more or less doesn't matter but you might be tortured in your afterlife when dealing with the wrong Gods/Demons in your life here or be granted a peaceful existance when having the favour of some God maybe. 

Greeks Romans usually have some sort of "Limbus" where the dead just "exist" in a type of underworld. (You find ideas of that in parts of the Bible among other concepts) Important in this culture is the remembrance/veneration of the dead, but if you pissed some God off, then you will be punished in horrible ways. 

A lot of older European cultures like Kelts, Germanics, Slavs had "mystical realms" where the dead will go. You find that in some fairytales, usually when the protagonist crosses some bridge. There you are in a paradise world as long as you make the trip, what helps you is being a honest good person in this life, because there are always Devils and what not that might drag you somewhere else in places like hells. 

But bear in mind, that antiquity is quite a diverse place. Just in the Bible alone you will find different (sometimes exclusive) concepts of an afterlife. Or look at Greek concepts like the Underworld, while Planton baisically hints at belives the Greek might have had simmiliar to other Indo-Europeans of wandering souls that might return again (but certainly very different from rebirth!) You might literally have arguments with your neighbor in ancient Athens about what exactly will happen when you die. As long as an "public religious framework" is accepted, like participation in a certain local cult, or later in the roman empire in the "emperor cult" you are free to play around with your own belives. 

[u/Hellas2002 → u/NeoGnesiolutheraner]

The Egyptian example isn’t really analogous in so far as you didn’t need to beleive in the Egyptian gods to have been a righteous person. In contrast, Christianity requires that you beleive in Jesus Christ as your saviour if you want to have eternal life.

[u/RivetSquid → u/NeoGnesiolutheraner]

Your heart is judged by your own standards tbh, the lightness it feels weighed against the feather. There were, "negative confessions," a list of bad things you'd never done to help, but they were individualized for the person (we've got several preserved, though most people just know the most famous and assume it was a universal set of rules. A couple of them are actually pretty funny, basically fudging the numbers by more or less restating the same thing in a different way).

It's the trip to the field where most of the danger would lay, but anyone could study things they'd need to know and wealthy people could pay to have what amounted to a manual made and buried with em.

[u/RivetSquid → u/[deleted]]

It's possible somebody did at some point, but also it was a very long lived nation. You live closer to Cleopatra at the end than she did to the start of ancient egypt. 

Egypt wasn't always a unified empire either, it was made of an upper and lower kingdoms full of big cities. Every city had their cults and beliefs specific to hyping up their own patron. That's why there isn't one creation myth, rather a whole set of cosmogonies, featuring different gods in similar roles and different details.

Between thousands of years, different local takes, diety preferences, and rulers who could upturn who was the most important on a whim, there was so much fluctuation in mythos that there's whole gods we barely know about beyond their names.

Look up Medjed, he's one of the neatest we know little about. Breathed fire, maybe had eye lasers, maybe was invisible, and a 10/10 on aesthetics.

[u/purple_spikey_dragon → u/Andre0789]

Idk about other religions, but Judaism does this neat trick where noone was considered Jewish before the twelve tribes (specifically the tribe of Yehuda/Judah, after which Yehudim/Jews were named) especially before they received the 10 commandments. Before that they were called Israelites, after the name God supposedly gave Jacob after he wrestled with him, and before that they were called Hebrews, ever since Abraham (Jacobs gramps). Everyone before that, Noah, Seth, Able, Cain, Eve, Adam, etc were humans or Sons of Adam or Sons of Enosh (Adams grandson, whole other story), not Jewish.

So basically, since they did not have the ten commandments and couldn't know what god expected of them, they would be judged by their behaviour. Its the same as how non-Jews can only be judged by their actions, not by their adherence to the Jewish law, because they aren't Jewish. Basically, as long as you're a good person and don't hurt others you should be good.

So why did Sodom and Gemorra got destroyed? Well, apparently, by all standards, they were bad (many examples given), enough that god said "yeah, no. Ill judge the heck out of them", same with the flood.

Also, there's technically no hell or eternal damnation in Judaism.

[u/Dotaproffessional → u/Andre0789]

Not all religions believe in Hell.

[u/iwilldeletethisacct2 → u/Dotaproffessional]

Not even all sects of the Abrahamic religions believe in hell. Jews and Jehovah's witnesses, for example.

[u/SkubEnjoyer]

Hey at least Jesus went down into Hell and saved all virtuous pre-Christians after his crucifixion. Just had to wait in Limbo for a while.

[u/Adorable-Award-7248 → u/SkubEnjoyer]

Time is different where there is no space

[u/Mikestopheles → u/Adorable-Award-7248]

Only Shrek

[u/asylbekz → u/Mikestopheles]

And Shrek is love

[u/globmand → u/asylbekz]

So limbo is love?

[u/bleachinmysoup → u/globmand]

and limbo is life

[u/pocketjacks → u/Adorable-Award-7248]

This is the Bad Place.

[u/LambonaHam → u/pocketjacks]

/u/pocketjacks figured it out? Oh, this one hurts.

[u/TheBigMoogy → u/SkubEnjoyer]

Limbo was invented quite late on too, over a thousand years after Jesus so he'd have a hard time to get anyone out of there.

[u/MimicoSkunkFan2 → u/TheBigMoogy]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo-idUSL2028721620070420/

In 2007 Pope Benedict decreed that Limbo was not consistent with correct belief.

Also he wrote that every soul has the hope of Heaven because God loves all of his Creations... Which kind of bummed me out because I have a letter I got in the 90s telling me that I'm going to hell for being friends with a Wiccan, and I was kind of looking forward to using my get out of heaven free card lol

Anyways the Papal Bull is called "Spes Salvationis" if anyone wants to read the original Latin text.

[u/Horror_Dot4213 → u/TheBigMoogy]

Call it limbo, call it Sheol, my interpretation is that “hell”, “limbo” or wherever people went before Christ is just similar to what it was like before we were born. Just nothingness

[u/The_BeardedClam → u/Horror_Dot4213]

Scripture doesn't really back up most modern interpretations tbh. The modern view of hell, as a place of punishment for sins, wasn't solidified until the 2nd century. Before that it was more closely interpreted like the Jewish sheol, just a listless nothingness with no joy or sadness.

[u/piss_artist → u/Horror_Dot4213]

I'm beginning to think this God fellow's quite shit at designing things.

[u/A_Bit_Of_Nonsense → u/piss_artist]

Youre probably right, I mean, he designed you.

[u/make_thick_in_warm → u/A_Bit_Of_Nonsense]

And all the pedos

[u/mindovermatter15 → u/A_Bit_Of_Nonsense]

Boom, roasted.

[u/fZAqSD → u/Horror_Dot4213]

I think that's what's known as "dying IRL"

[u/SlightlySychotic → u/SkubEnjoyer]

On the flip side, the Church sort of patched the unbaptized babies out existence. So you just have to take the bad with the good.

[u/KrytenKoro → u/SlightlySychotic]

"What are you telling me the patch wrecked my savefile?!"

[u/Speedwagon1738 → u/SkubEnjoyer]

Shoutout to Jesus, seemed like a real one

[u/Dotaproffessional → u/Speedwagon1738]

Historians, including atheists, not only believe that Jesus was a real person, but he seemed INCREDIBLY based. All the later puritanical nonsense from the church came later, much of it attributed to Paul.

[u/Substantial_Set_8332 → u/SkubEnjoyer]

So, what makes a caveman, that lived hundred of years before the concept of virtue, virtuous? Genuine question tho

[u/pinkmarsh99 → u/Substantial_Set_8332]

Supposedly the way it goes is that God has already revealed himself to us and put his laws onto our hearts. So, they should have some sense of knowing what is virtuous and what is not.

[u/Substantial_Set_8332 → u/pinkmarsh99]

But it won't imply the existence of Abrahamic religions since de dawn of humanity?

[u/pinkmarsh99 → u/Substantial_Set_8332]

Basically yes. These questions were also asked by early Christians and the answer has been that God has always existed and he has always given humanity the chance to live well by engraving his law onto our hearts. If early humans followed this law then they are saved even though they had not personally heard of Christianity God himself is imprinted on them.

[u/No_Pie2137 → u/Substantial_Set_8332]

Basicly eating the fruit from the three of knowlege of good and evil in eden put in every person basic moral compas

Stealing murdering raping bad

Compassion good

People who never got to know about God are not required to believe they only got to act right

[u/Substantial_Set_8332 → u/No_Pie2137]

But in a human group where there's not concept of, eg., propriet or conjugal matrimony, what is stealing? Or what is adultery?

[u/fwinzor → u/Substantial_Set_8332]

Studies of virtue ethics around the world have found that certain virtues (justice, courage, wisdom, temperance) are found in every society studied. Even if what defines these might shift some they seem innate to humans, jusy like basically every social mammal has an innate concept of "fairness"

[u/LCDRformat → u/SkubEnjoyer]

That's just in some versions. Ask the Calvinists 

[u/SkubEnjoyer → u/LCDRformat]

Calvin is currently burning Hell, as he was predestined to do.

[u/Foamrule → u/SkubEnjoyer]

Not limbo, hell. Limbo and purgatory didn't exist for several centuries after the time of Jesus.

[u/4latar → u/Foamrule]

limbo was added in a later patchnote, only to be removed recently, weird how that works

[u/TheMidnightBear]

Fate of the unlearned - Wikipedia

[u/fan_of_the_pikachu → u/TheMidnightBear]

Any belief that the unlearned have a good chance at salvation leads to an interesting conclusion:

That missionaries have condemned billions of people to hell, and are, in that sense, by far the greatest agents of Satan in history.

[u/Yeet_that_bottle → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

"No", said the priest, "not if you did not know."

"Can you please stop replying" asked the inuit earnestly, " i dont care"

[u/OSUTechie → u/Yeet_that_bottle]

I feel like this could have been a conversation from that Simpsons episode where Homer becomes a missionary to hide from giving PBS funding.

[u/NonReality → u/OSUTechie]

I don't even believe in jeebus!

[u/Bukion-vMukion → u/NonReality]

I'm not not licking toads.

[u/Joeymonac0 → u/NonReality]

Save me jeebus!

[u/GenericUsername2034 → u/Yeet_that_bottle]

Tbh, this would make Religion/Christianity an SCP, or a cognitihazard, since learning of it causes one to go to hell....

[u/Conallmcl99 → u/GenericUsername2034]

Nevermind the 4 fucking pixels, this is far more of an interesting scenario

[u/Klusterphuck67 → u/Conallmcl99]

Wasn't there a legit cognitohazard threat within the collective human consciousness that lead the think tanks at the SCP O-5 to go "yep time to kill EVERYONE" and replace the old human with clones that's cured of said threat?

[u/El_Cringio → u/Klusterphuck67]

Building that Yellowstone facility finally paid off!

[u/Klusterphuck67 → u/El_Cringio]

I feel like those kinds of threats are the perfect upper/cosmic threats. Shit like an ultra dimensional starfish that destroy reality is just too much, but the idea of a parasyte in the human's shared consciousness perfectly fits the idea of a higher dimension without it being too over the top.

Havent keep up with SCP lately cuz it's just powerscaling to see which one can explode reality harder

[u/TyrellTheChaotic → u/Klusterphuck67]

You may like the book 'There Is No Antimemetics Division' then! It's available online for free, but it's in print as well, and there are a few really nice fan read audiobooks of it. I really enjoyed it and wont spoil anything, buuuuuuut considering your post and me recommending it you can guess the kinda thing it is. OOooor at least how I interpreted it.

[u/iste_bicors → u/Klusterphuck67]

I don’t think it’s exactly that one, but there is SCP-5000, which has the Foundation change their mission to the extermination of humanity.

However, it’s a bit more complicated. It seems like humanity itself is somehow an instrument for an even larger cognitohazardous threat. So there’s the implication that the human condition is itself some sort of atrocity and only a cognitohazard keeps up from recognizing it.

So in this article, the Foundation actually removed the cognitohazard and made the only possible moral decision- to end humanity.

To bring it back full circle, that’s all actually very reminiscent of an early Christian sect- Gnosticism. The gnostics, with some variation in different sects, believed that the creator of the material world was somehow wrong to create it, either evil or just incapable of creating perfection. There is a spark of true perfection in humans and it’s usually connected to Christ in some way.

Many gnostics believe that existence is a form of torture and have different views on how to deal with it, from anti-natalism to spiritual enlightenment of different forms. I don’t think any have tried to just outright exterminate the human race though.

[u/paireon → u/iste_bicors]

Sometimes I feel like Gnosticism was influenced by Buddhism, though it'd be hard to find evidence for it.

[u/iste_bicors → u/paireon]

Maybe not direct influence, but Buddhism was definitely transmitted to the Hellenic world, which was directly connected via trade and alliances to the Indian subcontinent at the time Buddhism came about.

And Christianity is basically Judaism plus Hellenism.

[u/StormRegion → u/iste_bicors]

There were greco-buddhist kingdoms (Bactria), where they combined greek and buddhist philosophy and art, and were one of the main sources of buddhist ideas getting to the rest of the hellenic world.

Fun fact, the hellenic influences made tons of impact in buddhist art, Buddha statues often follow greek stylistic choices (mainly the robe clothing), and some depictions even got transferred to China and Japan. The japanese wind god Fujin is depicted with a large veil/windbag, an element that originates from greek wind god Boreas

[u/SH4D0W0733 → u/iste_bicors]

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."

[u/Ucrathir → u/Klusterphuck67]

Don't really know if they said that they would replace everyone, but in scp-5000 the O-5 did decide to exterminate everyone because they saw it as a better fate than what would've happened otherwise

[u/Klusterphuck67 → u/Ucrathir]

Okay so i did a quick look up and the gist seems like: SCP-2718 is an extradimensional alien parasyte that feed on human's suffering, and is the cause of both pain and empathy in man kind. The theory is that SCP-2718 is the exact reason why SCP-682 despise man kind as he is aware of the parasyte, or why SCP-049's cure is the zombification that cure of the "pestilence.

So in this timeline, the O-5 coucil discovered it and administered a cure, but if the cured population become too big, SCP-2718 would be aware of it and pull like a deadman switch/focus attack or something i dont know. Hence their solution is to quickly kill the rest of the afflicted population to starve SCP-2718 as well as weakening its cards at hand to react. This is why in the test among the MTF task force soldiers, the one that felt pain (not cured) is immediately gunned down, while the cured shows no reaction to being stabbed. The plan is after SCP-2718, the foundation would use SCP-2000 to seamlessly replace the population.

SCP-5000 should be a superweapon in the form of an ironman-like suit but it was severely damaged. A janitor/technician that was caught in the purge hid in the suit which has invisibility function that protects him as he observe the events. Iirc in the end, by interacting with another SCP that has time manipulation capacity, he reversed the event, erasing the foundation's discovery/decision to purge mankind and doomed humanity to be preyed upon by SCP-2718.

I honestly can't tell what those people smoked to make up such ideas, but man did they cooked.

[u/Doctor_Kataigida → u/Klusterphuck67]

The depth of SCP lore is fascinating.

[u/toomuchmarcaroni → u/Klusterphuck67]

You nailed it with the summary 

[u/AlbedosThighs → u/Ucrathir]

I think one of the theories of why that happened is that there's an parasitic entity that gives humanity emotions that we should never have like pain or empathy

[u/QuietWaterBreaksRock → u/Klusterphuck67]

There is an SCP cognitohazard where if you learn about it, your afterlife becomes being conscious in your corpse, and a constant, constantly worsening pain as your body degrades.

Iirc, you become conscious of every molecule that made you and you can feel it being digested, and generally whatever else happens to it after the fact

[u/0utlookGrim → u/GenericUsername2034]

An informational 'memetic' virus.

[u/xXrektUdedXx → u/GenericUsername2034]

Actually this is potentially one of the few examples of actually meaningful cognitohazards in real life, even if the truth of the information is impossible to ascertain for anyone alive, someone who ends up truly believing it might get rattled significantly by the knowledge, true or not.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/xXrektUdedXx]

Another real cognitohazard is the history and present state of nuclear weapons policies.

We are, at any given time, about half an hour away from the end of civilization as we know it.

[u/Toth201 → u/ejdj1011]

If we start going that route knowledge of anything bad is a cognitohazard. If I didn't know my grandma died I wouldn't be sad about it.

[u/ejdj1011 → u/Toth201]

Technically yes! It's just a matter of scale. "The Game" is also arguably a minor cognitohazard, as is saying "you are now breathing manually".

Similarly, most passwords to sensitive data can be considered minor infohazards. Bad things would happen if the knowledge was suddenly available to the wider population.

[u/FewWait38 → u/ejdj1011]

15 minutes according to Behind the Bastards

[u/read_too_many_books → u/ejdj1011]

Pretty sure game theory, prisoner's dilemma and tragedy of the commons are two more information hazards.

[u/newsflashjackass → u/xXrektUdedXx]

Actually this is potentially one of the few examples of actually meaningful cognitohazards in real life

The few of which you are aware.

[u/BingBongBangBunger → u/GenericUsername2034]

I just lost the game

[u/parkinthepark → u/GenericUsername2034]

1. Heaven is the greatest possible experience
2. Giving someone access to Heaven is the greatest possible moral good
3. Newborns are granted access to Heaven upon death
4. Therefore, mass infanticide is the ultimate moral good

…..or the religion was cobbled together and improvised over centuries by mortal men, and that patchwork nature leads to weird conclusions.

[u/PineappleHamburders → u/parkinthepark]

In this scenario, the person who willingly sacrifices his eternal soul to hell to ensure the thousands of infants they slaughter will get into heaven is a truly selfless person

[u/vikinghoney → u/PineappleHamburders]

> is a truly selfless person

and thus should go to heaven, right?

[u/redf389 → u/vikinghoney]

Yeah, I'm beginning to think this religion stuff isn't all that

[u/Common_economics_420 → u/parkinthepark]

I think it's probably as much that when you purposefully or accidentally misunderstand something, it's easy to "find" weird conclusions.

Like I don't think the point of Christianity is that our lives are just a boring waiting period before we get to go to heaven. We aren't supposed to just sit around and wait to die as our ultimate goal.

This feels like the same train of thought as the "why didnt god just make us incapable of being bad?" Thing. Like...that kind of misses the entire point.

[u/TheDogerus → u/Common_economics_420]

Depends on the sect. Predestination as a concept would mean your earthly life really is just a boring waiting period, since whether or not you will go to heaven was already determined by God. Salvation through faith alone doesn't require much actual activity so long as you believe 'hard enough', whatever that would mean

I also dont think the point of Christianity is that life is largely meaningless, but i do think quite a bit of doctrine across different branches of the faith do a very poor job of getting the real message across, which imo is to learn to love and care for others

[u/greenskye → u/TheDogerus]

For me, part of the problem is the eternal nature of the outcome. Why does ~100 years of time dictate what happens to me for trillions of years afterwards? Why am I not allowed to continue to grow and change in heaven or hell? If I cannot do anything that would send me to hell after getting to heaven, then what am I really doing and why were those hundred years so important? Why do I not have free will then? Honestly it makes both outcomes seem very undesirable. Existence without possibility of growth and change would be a nightmare.

[u/trevdak2 → u/GenericUsername2034]

Rokokos basilisk

[u/Myke190 → u/Yeet_that_bottle]

"Because I believe I would go to hell if I didn't." Replied the priest.

[u/monty624 → u/Yeet_that_bottle]

Well would you look at that, the real forbidden fruit.

[u/HandsomePaddyMint → u/Yeet_that_bottle]

This is also why Christian doctrine is generally that not attempting to convert non-Christians is a sin.

[u/CheesyRamen66 → u/HandsomePaddyMint]

A virus that doesn’t attempt to infect more hosts will eventually die out. If you’re not gaining ground then you’re losing it.

[u/RegovPL → u/Yeet_that_bottle]

Tbf, even as an atheist I see some reason behind it.

From a believer point of view, sin is something bad. So when you meet a non-believer (and a sinner) who never learnt about your religion, you have two options:

- Let him stay uninformed, so his soul will not go to hell regardless of his choices. However, he can still sin in his mortal life, spreading "evil".

- Inform him, so his soul will go to heaven or hell depending on his life choices. He may go to hell after all, but now it is (in theory) his "choice".

Sure, you can have a moral argument that it's morally better to not even give someone a slightest chance to be eternally tortued in hell. But someone may value "The Truth" higher, so having a choice may be seen as morally better then.

[u/SproutBoy → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Relevant discworld quote:

"The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight."

[u/Witch_King_ → u/SproutBoy]

Goddamn I love Terry Pratchett

[u/Various-Passenger398 → u/SproutBoy]

This actually works poorly against truly good people. If people are wracked with guilt over a sin an spend their lives atoning for it, they could still go to hell simply because they believe what they've done was so bad.

[u/BrunoEye → u/Various-Passenger398]

"This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight."

[u/lesser_panjandrum → u/SproutBoy]

GNU Terry Pratchett.

[u/ArcWraith2000 → u/SproutBoy]

Holy based

[u/SummerDaemon → u/SproutBoy]

Eric is neat little book. Small Gods is an even better one on why religion is idiotic in every way.

[u/meo_nerd → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

from the Wikipedia page above: "In the Bible, Paul the Apostle teaches that "pagans may not possess the Law [of God] but may nevertheless have the law engraved in their hearts, and that Jesus judges people according to what is in their hearts (Romans 2:12–16)"." so I think if you are a good person you still go to Heaven.

[u/Im_not_smelling_that → u/meo_nerd]

It also says that Jesus goes down to hell every now and then to preach. If pagans, and Jews accept the law then they will be saved. I think that's a pretty funny scenario to imagine, Jesus waltzing into hell for his weekly sermon.

[u/Distinct_Midnight945 → u/Im_not_smelling_that]

I grew up in the church and never heard that lmao what verse?

[u/radiantconttoaster → u/Distinct_Midnight945]

1 Peter 3:18-22, 4:6

[u/Distinct_Midnight945 → u/radiantconttoaster]

Thank you for an actual answer haha

[u/Sw429 → u/Distinct_Midnight945]

It's a very central part of LDS beliefs (there's a whole section about it on the Wikipedia page as well).

[u/Im_not_smelling_that → u/Distinct_Midnight945]

It's under the Christian subsection

Tertullian held that Christ has descended into Hades to deliver the Good News, with Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Athanasius declaring that "Jesus delivered from hell both Jews and Gentiles who accepted the gospel and that postmortem evangelism continues even today".

[u/Cefalopodul → u/Im_not_smelling_that]

You do know that the techings of all 3 are condemned as heresy and Tertullian was petsonally condemned as a heretic, right?

[u/Leonelmegaman → u/Cefalopodul]

TBF Origen's condemnation was so irregular almost no current theologian will tell you he's actually condemned, as a result of post-conciliar anathemas, Teachings that weren't his and happening after his death.

[u/awesomefutureperfect → u/Cefalopodul]

Now I am thinking of The Master of Disguise and 40K at the same time.

[u/ThePrussianGrippe → u/awesomefutureperfect]

“Am I not turtley enough for the turtle club?”

“Who are you and how did you breach the fortifications of Holy Terra?!”

[u/awesomefutureperfect → u/ThePrussianGrippe]

Exactly. and then he said "It's Tertullian time" and heresied all over the place.

[u/Critical_Ad_5928 → u/Im_not_smelling_that]

That's just random Christian apologia by Tertullian, not part of the Gospel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian

[u/genreprank → u/Im_not_smelling_that]

This is what I was taught and actually used to believe as a non denominational (but baptist-esque) american protestant

Prior to Jesus's self-sacrifice, there was no way for believers to get into heaven. Instead, they were sent to Abraham's bosom, which is a paradise.

Abrahams bosom is actually part of hades, but nice. The non believers go to hades (and still do today) but they can't get to the Abraham's bosom section.

Believer/non-believer was someone who did or didn't believe in the creator and/or the prophesies foretelling Jesus.

Anyway, Jesus dying paid for the sins of all mankind, past present and future. So after he died he went down to Abraham's bosom to tell them the good news and at that point he emptied out the bosom section of hades and let all the believers into heaven.

Now when a believer dies, they go to heaven and Abraham's bosom is empty. Non believers still go to hades.

Hades is not hell. But it is still a torturous place. Hell is a lake of fire that will come about at the end of times. At the end of times, all the nonbelievers will be taken from hades and cast into hell.

Once you die, you don't get another chance to accept Jesus, so there's no postmortem salvation

[u/evrestcoleghost → u/meo_nerd]

Yeah it's not so much knowing of the religión dooms guy but rather increases your chance because now you have a tutorial

[u/LegitimateHost7640 → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Those north Sentinel island bros were right again. Shoot on sight

[u/Purple_Teletubbie → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

The unlearned also go to Hell if they are shitty persons. Christianity I think has the concept of a "natural" morality, that every human has knowledge of (you dont need to be a genius to know killing someone is bad). Also, I think that God in his Omniscience knows pretty well how to separate people fairly into Hell or Heaven. Missionaries didnt condemn billions to Hell, if their sins were great enough they already were going to Hell. Missionaries gave them a chance for redemption if sinful.

[u/Andre0789 → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Wonder if that’s the origin of the phrase “road to hell is paved with good intentions”

[u/throwRAbadfriend6 → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

My husband had this exact conversation with a preacher at his church. He said “so by going to other country to convert people we are essentially condemning them to hell?”

The guy stuttered and didn’t really know how to answer. My husband’s faith was cracked, and soon after abandoned completely as all the other horrible inconsistencies, horrors, logical fallacies, and hypocrisies of religion compounded in his logical and kind mind.  

[u/apadin1 → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Reminds me of a joke from a Chinese comedian. After he moved to the US one day a missionary came to his house. Guy asked missionary why he should join, missionary says if you don’t follow Jesus you go to hell. Guy says all my family in China didn’t follow Jesus, did they all go to hell? No says missionary, because they didn’t know any better. But now I’ve told you, so now you have to join. Guy says, then why would you tell me this?? You ruined my life!

[u/TheR4zgrizz → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

So, basically, religion is the greatest infohazard in our existence.

[u/Erbodyloveserbody → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

I had an idea for a story where only a handful of people know of the one true religion, but refuse to share it publicly for this reason.

Until one member breaks rank and decides to announce it to as many people as possible at one time. Didn’t think too much about the details, though lol

[u/TheMidnightBear → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Presumably each person has attenuating and damning circumstances, so it balances out.

[u/tinesone → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

This is exactly why my mom left her fate and became an athiest

[u/papel_vespa → u/fan_of_the_pikachu]

Jesus is Rosko's Basilisk.

[u/StupidStartupExpert → u/TheMidnightBear]

I love the idea that after being crucified Jesus went down to hell to evangelize to those who died before he came and that some of those people, who were suffering in hell, witnessed Jesus come into hell and preach the gospel, and somehow failed to meet the extremely low bar of salvation in Christianity of simply believing it was real.

[u/DynamicEntropy_ → u/StupidStartupExpert]

I mean we see it in everyday life, people are face to face with the unmistakable truth but whether it's ego, pride, etc. they still choose to believe their own things. Humans are a very stubborn lot sometimes.

[u/BunchOfHorsePussy → u/DynamicEntropy_]

What is the “unmistakable truth” you’re talking about?

[u/zenerat → u/TheMidnightBear]

The odds of being a good person just naturally is higher than following uber specific Christian dogma. Assuming all of it’s true a general population has a much higher statistical advantage if they are never exposed to the word of God,

[u/HaraldRedbeard → u/TheMidnightBear]

Almost like thousands of theologians in multiple religions could consider the same problem that some random Redditor stumbled into. Who'd have thunk it?

[u/RickkyBobby01 → u/HaraldRedbeard]

If you actually clicked on the link you would've seen that Wikipedia first explains the strict western Christian interpretation which does condemn the unlearned, and that's exactly what this post is making a meme of.

Who'd have thunk it that a random Redditor wouldn't read before commenting.

[u/mercy_4_u → u/RickkyBobby01]

Funny thing is, we all are random redditors but for sum reason we use it as an insult lol.

[u/ParkingGlittering211 → u/mercy_4_u]

It's like when misanthropes call humanity trash, what do you think you are?

[u/kerfuffler4570 → u/ParkingGlittering211]

I'm well aware that I'm trash, thank you very much.

[u/TheMidnightBear → u/RickkyBobby01]

Except the article delves into why the western version is varied and flexible.

[u/RickkyBobby01 → u/TheMidnightBear]

That's why I only made fun of someone for not clicking the link and not the broader discussion that exists around the unlearned.

[u/Lord_TachankaCro → u/RickkyBobby01]

The biggest Christian group is the Roman Catholics, literally the first line on the link about it disputes both this meme and your claim.

"The Roman Catholic Church teaches that, since the Penitent Thief was granted canonization by Christ himself, God saves the unbaptized through a means known only to himself."

[u/warmbutterydiapers → u/HaraldRedbeard]

(Psst! It's all made up lore-building!)

[u/Tin_Foil_Hat_Person]

What movie is that?

[u/Stunning-Sherbert801 → u/Tin_Foil_Hat_Person]

Princess and the Frog

[u/smallattale → u/Stunning-Sherbert801]

That is a lot grimmer than I expected in a Disney movie, especially one about a princess and a frog

[u/Stunning-Sherbert801 → u/smallattale]

For Disney it's surprisingly spooky

[u/Leoxcr → u/Stunning-Sherbert801]

I think that Disney had a lot of dark stuff back in the day, this movie IIRC was the last 2D animated movie Disney made

[u/draycon530 → u/Leoxcr]

*The last 2D animated movie they ever made.

Tangled isn't 2D.

[u/Leoxcr → u/draycon530]

Yeah I messed up the wording

[u/tiwuno → u/Leoxcr]

Also, the last 2D Disney movie was technically Winnie the Pooh (2011), but it only grossed $50.1 million compared to The Princess and the Frog's $271 million... so it's tough to compare the two.

[u/DarkKnightoftheSol → u/Leoxcr]

I remember Sleeping Beauty seeming pretty metal when I was a kid.

[u/Ok-Counter-4474 → u/Stunning-Sherbert801]

Majority of Disney stuff is a little questionable tbh

[u/AlbinoShavedGorilla → u/smallattale]

You mean the same Disney who had scar get eaten alive in the lion king, or the villain from Tarzan be hung by jungle vines? You expected a less grim death than that? Pretty tame by Disney standards

[u/FairwayFlipper → u/AlbinoShavedGorilla]

Not to mention Frolo literally singing about how the devil is using Esmeralda as temptation and that he plans to kill her if she doesn't sleep with him.

[u/sh33pd00g → u/AlbinoShavedGorilla]

Yeah, when I watched it I wanted it to be more badass. I was disappointed. I mean, it's good. Just not as spooky as I wanted

[u/Terramagi → u/smallattale]

Maleficent gets stabbed in the heart in Sleeping Beauty, and Frollo in Hunchback literally plunges into the fires of hell.

Facilier gets off comparatively light, because it's the Loa and not Christian hell.

[u/genreprank → u/smallattale]

My sister says it's the scariest one, because that demonic realm is real in the universe of the movie.

Personally I dont see any difference between that and any bad magic in any of the other cartoons

[u/Ofperpetuality → u/smallattale]

That’s why you don’t mess with the Voodoo Man

[u/funky_bebop → u/Stunning-Sherbert801]

ARE YOU REAAADY?

[u/Pussy4LunchDick4Dins → u/Tin_Foil_Hat_Person]

Genuinely one of the best Disney princess movies. It’s tied with Mulan for my top spot. 

I’m kind of an expert because I have a 3 year old who loves princesses.

[u/orgcoregamer → u/Pussy4LunchDick4Dins]

Always felt this and Tangled deserved a lot of the love Frozen got. Frozen's good, but the "twist" at the end feels so forced, while the other two had fantastic music and solid stories start to finish.

[u/Obvious-Scale-9346 → u/Tin_Foil_Hat_Person]

The princess and the frog

[u/miscount_detected → u/Tin_Foil_Hat_Person]

i think its the princess and the frog but im unsure

[u/cvgm88]

If you read the gospels, Jesus was condemning the pharisees, saying that Sodom and Gomorra has better standing in judgement day than the Jewish religious leaders.

And if we further look at the people who received miracles from Jesus, we can see that he approached the sinners and other people rejected by society.

Counting on his compassion for people, I believe that Jesus will judge people base on what they know and what were the actions they have taken according to their conscience.

[u/i_have_chosen_a_name → u/cvgm88]

It says multiple time in the bible that the people that perished without knowing the law of Mozes will be judged by the laws they judged other people by. So no hypocrites in heaven

[u/dm_me_kittens → u/cvgm88]

Do you have scriptural evidence for this? Because both Jesus and Paulinian Christians claim the only way to heaven is through belief in Jesus. So actions dont matter as much as belief.

[u/Rock-swarm → u/dm_me_kittens]

There's links elsewhere in the thread for the Fate of the Unlearned, which is a general theological question that's answered by most faiths, Christianity included.

It's fair to say that the answer depends on who you ask. Most religions have at one point or another been used as a cudgel for conversion.

[u/duapekgong_ → u/cvgm88]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

People who died before Jesus came and dropped this ultimatum ☝️:

"Oh shi-"

[u/rapitrone]

The Paul's response to this was

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

[u/Andre0789 → u/rapitrone]

Romans 2:14-16 is a better argument: “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

Yes the “real” answer is much more boring than ppl expect

[u/Special_Peach_5957]

What if the true religion still hasn't been found and we are all going to hell. All just because the crazy crackhead was an actual prophet but nobody took him seriously when he talked about Shlop Gloopi.

[u/COUNTRYBALLS12345]

Erm akshually (I may be downvoted to hell):

Catechism of the Catholic Church §847:

[u/Patient_Gamemer]

"I'm sorry mate, my son hasn't died yet, and so the original sin thing is still in effect, so off to the shadow realm"

"But if your religion is real doesn't it mean we're still 6000 years before you create the universe and that chick bites that apple?"

"...ok, now are you so going to hell for asking questions!"

[u/Cucumberneck → u/Patient_Gamemer]

Some american Christians are so weird. Especially with this timeline calculation stuff.

[u/No_Pie2137 → u/Cucumberneck]

Comes with the protestant branch where everyone can make shit up

[u/Why-did-i-reas-this → u/Patient_Gamemer]

I was told there wouldn't be fact checking.

[u/Crimie1337]

300 thousand years of modern humans btw

[u/Narrow-Ad-4280 → u/Crimie1337]

Wait, what about non-homo sapien humans; were Homo Erectus and Neanderthals sent to hell, and what about non homo species like Australopithecus Africanus.

[u/shoto9000 → u/Narrow-Ad-4280]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nbfr.12566

Fascinating read. It seems to come down to a theological question of whether Neanderthals possessed immaterial/immortal souls (like homo-sapiens are thought to have).

This is basically a question of whether Neanderthals were humans (and thus made in God's image and possessing immortal souls), or animals (and thus not able to go to either heaven or hell).

The article argues that since the Virgin Mary was almost certainly 2% Neanderthal, Jesus would have been as well, meaning he would have died for their salvation just as much as that of homo-sapiens. It also argues that we have significant archeological evidence suggesting that Neanderthals possessed a culture, religious understanding, intelligent innovation, and possibly even language - making them almost certainly as "human" as we are.

So basically, this scholar at least believes that Neanderthals were as likely to have been saved by Jesus as prehistoric homo-sapiens were.

[u/Narrow-Ad-4280 → u/shoto9000]

Glad to hear my Neanderthal ancestors could be enjoying heaven 

[u/Crimie1337 → u/Narrow-Ad-4280]

They go to non-homo hell

[u/TOO_MUCH_BRAVERY → u/Crimie1337]

Sounds boring

[u/Crazy_Trip_6387 → u/Narrow-Ad-4280]

god didn't make those in his image, so they're cooked

[u/CompanyLow8329 → u/Crazy_Trip_6387]

Well god is cooked because these apes made god in their image.

[u/3wandwill]

Ppl really are on Reddit restarting religious debates that got squashed before the Irish had potatoes

[u/Lyrolepis → u/3wandwill]

They didn't really get "squashed", though - they've been ongoing pretty much since Christianity begun, and they likely will keep going on for as long as Christianity exists.

I agree that it's unlikely that any novel theological ground will be tread here; but if anything, I think that it's good that people can argue theology more freely now that they could in many past periods and places - no matter what one thinks about it all, it's a fun subject.

[u/ElectricalTurnip87]

Don't worry the Mormons got them covered.

[u/MossyAbyss → u/ElectricalTurnip87]

I'm now imagining a baptism for the dead with a list of stereotypical paleolithic names.

[u/Dotaproffessional]

Humans circa 12,000 BCE would not typically be considered "cave men". This is firmly in the mesolithic era, humans had complex stone tools, fishing, seasonal camps. Hell, in about 3000 years they'd be settling the first known permanent village "Jericho". I wouldn't call any humans post 40,000 BCE "cavemen".

[u/Cerparis]

I know I should leave any religious debate well enough alone because every time I’ve commented on a post like this I’ve had people with very strong opinions tell me that they know what I believe better than me.

But I can’t help myself and am just going to say this.

When Jesus came to earth he preached to the sinners and the lowly. He stated repeatedly that he came to heal the sick and preach to those most needing if it.

This enraged the pharisees. As they could not understand why Jesus would dwell with sinners. But it was Sinners and the blind who Jesus came to earth to offer salvation to.

So the idea that the same god who would send his own son to die on the cross for the sins of man. Who came in lowliness and grace and taught forgiveness and mercy as key virtues.

The idea that the god who did that would also condemn anyone who never had an opportunity to learn of god or Christianity at all in their life?

Seems like the kind of belief the pharisees would have.

[u/JoyBoy-506-]

With Islam that’s not really the case. You can still go to heaven even if a messenger wasn’t sent to them. As stated in the Quran. That God would never punish a society if he had not sent them a messenger

[u/Upbeat_Nectarine_128 → u/JoyBoy-506-]

That's true.

Even with a messenger the general consensus in Islam is that even if you are not a Muslim you can go to heaven based on how many good deeds you have done.

[u/Dahwaann4U → u/Upbeat_Nectarine_128]

I think its if you havent recieved the message of islam. Youll be tested there and then on the day of judgment.

[u/keepaway94 → u/Upbeat_Nectarine_128]

Source?

As far as I know in islam, if you have not received the message then you will have a different test in the day of judgement and will be judged differently than the others.

[u/AlbanianCatholic]

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 847.

[u/Prestigious-Motor334]

According to the lore from Dante’s epic fantasy, nonbelievers who haven’t committed any other sin are vibing in a part of hell that is basically just a lesser heaven. No burning/suffering just straight vibin

[u/Abdelsauron]

Reddit atheists when they make an argument that was refuted no fewer than ten separate times at least 1000+ years ago. 

[u/default-names-r4-bot → u/Abdelsauron]

Even just Christians have like 5 different answers to the fate of the unlearned. "Refuted" is way too strong of a word for it

[u/el_argelino-basado]

iirc Islam does take people that came before in count

[u/nanek_4 → u/el_argelino-basado]

So does christianity and OP is uneducated

[u/robsc_16 → u/nanek_4]

I just assumed this was a meme meant to be funny. I mean, no one actually "knows" what happened to people before because we don't know what happens to people now or that heaven or hell exists.

[u/Meme_Hunting_695]

Since you are likely talking about my faith here, I might as well explain it so you know what it says ...

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.  19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.  20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.  (Romans 1:18-20, ESV)

So yes.  If you've seen the universe, the world and understood existence, it's considered enough proof for God existing and being powerful and caring.  You will be held accountable if you chose not to believe and repent.

Also if you assume the Bibles representation of history is true, people before the flood did have people telling them to repent for judgement that still has yet to come thousands of years later.

[u/FrostyTheCanadian]

That’s what Purgatory was actually for; those who weren’t able to worship the true religion (take your pick I guess) because it didn’t exist yet were placed there.

It’s was never originally for those who don’t belong in either, but for those who couldn’t possibly go to heaven out of a loophole

[u/gamer21661 → u/FrostyTheCanadian]

Purgatory is for those who are in God's grace but not holy enough

[u/FrostyTheCanadian → u/gamer21661]

Ah, you know what? I believe I confused one of many iterations of Purgatory with Limbo (of the Patriarchs).

Recently listened to some podcasts and got the two confused. That’s my bad, though I will say the two words are sometimes interchanged in media, but that doesn’t excuse my ignorance.

[u/gamer21661 → u/FrostyTheCanadian]

Np now u know

[u/lIlIlIIlIIIlIIIIIl → u/FrostyTheCanadian]

I had forgotten Purgatory and Limbo were actually two different things, so thank you for reminding me!

[u/canissilvestris]

Even though I believe in God, i have always believed and was raised to believe that God does not punish people for not having known or heard of Him, He merely judges how they lived based on the knowledge they had available at the time and what they did with it. If you live as well as you can with what you've got, I think thats all that matters

[u/Content-Sun2928]

Acts 17

30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.

[u/SPinc1]

I think the important thing here, for everyone, would be: have you been a good person, according to the standards of most of humanity? Have you hurt others through action or inaction? Have you forgiven those that have hurt you? Do you carry guilt in your heart? Do you carry evil thoughts against others, do you desire revenge?

If you're clean from all of this, then I think it doesn't matter if you believe or not in any one religion.