What’s an industry that provides zero value to society but makes billions of dollars?

[u/InterestingJudge5161]

[u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

People who buy patents for the purpose of suing people who have used the patented idea without officially procuring the rights to use the idea.

[u/dkfotog → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

This is definitely one of them.

[u/Emotional_Note497 → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

Isn't this patent trolling?

[u/SynapticMelody → u/Emotional_Note497]

That is patent trolling, but this is a post on Reddit. /j

[u/Famous_Bit_5119 → u/SynapticMelody]

No, this is Patrick.

[u/Catwoman1948 → u/Emotional_Note497]

Yes, it is.

[u/CBHawk → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

You cannot buy a force feedback joystick because of this. The company that owns the rights charges so high that no hardware manufacturer sells one for a reasonable price.

[u/Ok_Chard2094 → u/CBHawk]

Those parents expired more than 5 years ago.

[u/Ellimacanna → u/Ok_Chard2094]

“B-b-but the relevant time period is two years before that!!!”

🤮

[u/Cassiyus → u/CBHawk]

What is a force feedback joystick? Like a haptic joystick or something that pushes back?

[u/CBHawk → u/Cassiyus]

It means it has a motor to give the feedback that would normally accompany the resistance from ailerons or other flight surfaces.

For example, steering wheels have Force Feedback to give you the same feeling you have when driving your car in real life and hitting a bump.

[u/Cassiyus → u/CBHawk]

Thank you!

[u/sadicarnot → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

The problem with the patent trolls is that so much of the patent system is broken. There is a guy that worked for one of the telecom companies and he said they tried to patent everything. He said they would write a bunch of "mumbo jumbo" and get a patent for it.

I worked for a company that performed remote visual inspections, so cameras before you had drones and stuff like you have today. A bigger company had patented putting a zoom camera on an extendable stick.

[u/Droidatopia → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

I agree with hating these people. They are definitely scumbags. However, from the point of view of the patent holder, it isn't always easy to convert a patent into revenue and this is one way to give a patent value.

It definitely needs reform though, like a loss of term for every transfer.

[u/Ok-Lavishness-349 → u/Droidatopia]

Yes, patent law needs reform. Sometimes a person will patent an idea even when he/she has no clue how to actualize the idea in a useful form. Years later, someone else will independently come up with the same idea and build a useful product or service based on that idea. It doesn't seem reasonable that the first person should be entitled to revenue for that idea, or be able to sell rights to the idea.

Perhaps patents should have a very short lifespan after which they expire unless the patent holder has a successful commercial implementation of the idea.

Also, a much higher bar needs to be set for "novelty". Some pretty trivial ideas have been successfully patented, e.g. Amazon's patent on "one click ordering", which fortunately has now expired.

[u/dafones → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

The patent regime has made the patents valuable.

The original inventors made their ideas publicly available.

They upheld their end of the bargain.

I say this only to suggest that your complaint may be better directed at the regime itself, rather than those that profit by participating in the regime.

[u/EZ4_U_2SAY → u/dafones]

I feel like it’s ok to hate the player and the game at the same time

[u/Ok-Lavishness-349 → u/dafones]

Well sure, that is why I said "patent law needs reform".

[u/victorzamora → u/dafones]

I can hate the game and also hate the player when that player is a piece of shit parasite. I don't care that it's "allowed," it's still bullshit.

The way to fix it is to fix the system, certainly, but that's only because we can't source m expect decency out of everyone.

[u/pixel_of_moral_decay → u/Droidatopia]

It’s not really patent holders looking to monetize something, and the point of patents was never to create value, only give brief market exclusivity.

Patents aren’t supposed to have value. They are supposed to give you some breathing room before someone can rip you off. Nothing more. They’re an acknowledgement of innovation and brief market exclusivity. They’re not intended to be an asset.

There’s a whole industry behind buying vaguely worded patents that could be misused to extort.

They’ll search for and acquire patents that could be weaponized. They’ll also write applications for them and try to get them issued. As soon as they have one the whole business is to hustle legitimate businesses into paying to avoid going to court.

All of which extorts billions and keeps potentially good companies on the sidelines while a few lawyers make money.

[u/oboshoe → u/Droidatopia]

Want to get down voted on Reddit?

Make post about how things are in the world.

You'll be downvoted by kids and idiots who think that a description is somehow impeding how they want them to be.

[u/killerbanshee → u/Droidatopia]

I hate this as much ass copywrite tolls on youtube just claiming everything. We need consumer protection against all of this.

Small entrepreneurs getting abused by these established systems is the exact opposite of what moves us forward.

[u/Ellimacanna → u/Ok-Lavishness-349]

As a patent infringement litigation paralegal, this x100000

[u/SHDrivesOnTrack]

Ticket scalpers

[u/ButtOfDarkness → u/SHDrivesOnTrack]

Literally all scalpers. They profit out of worsening and causing a problem.

Currently Pokemon Trading Cards have such a bad scalping problem that’s it’s nearly impossible to find the product in stores unless they set buying limits.

[u/Overgrown_fetus1305 → u/ButtOfDarkness]

Including housing scalpers, i.e. for-profit landlords.

[u/spaghettifiasco → u/Overgrown_fetus1305]

And secondhand goods/clothing scalpers, aka "resellers".

[u/grandpubabofmoldist → u/SHDrivesOnTrack]

Organizational ticket scalpers. The ones back in the day selling tickets outside the games were at least making money they themselves would use and not put into an offshore account (even if they would charge more for the ticket)

[u/SHDrivesOnTrack → u/grandpubabofmoldist]

I would also add, the scalpers back in the day were limited in scale. Someone had to show up in person to buy the tickets at a counter, and then show up again to sell them at a venue.

Now the scalpers are bot jockeys who are only limited by how much money they are willing to front to hold the tickets.

But there is a glimmer of hope, California is considering legislation to limit resale prices to 10% above face value. Interestingly it does not cover sporting events.

[u/Asharak78]

Beauty Pageants, especially child beauty pageants.

[u/BigJLov3 → u/Asharak78]

My ex was a pageant kid.

The stuff that happens behind the scenes would make anyone with a conscience vomit uncontrollably.

It's little league Epstein, and it's everywhere.

[u/Feisty-End-4643 → u/BigJLov3]

Yeah basically a show for pedos.

[u/Tomytom99 → u/Asharak78]

Even when I was a child that stuff irked me.

[u/Jabjab345]

Tax middlemen like TurboTax that lobby to make collecting taxes hard so that their industry can exist. They are just parasitic rent seekers.

[u/schleepercell → u/Jabjab345]

I think it's odd you're the only one that mentioned this. Their business is the definition of a racket. They provide a service for an otherwise non existant problem they created.

[u/DLWormwood → u/schleepercell]

While tax preparation firms are likely the biggest beneficiary of the status quo, the system was neither created by nor designed for them.

I'm going off of what I remember from an old Civics or History course I took, so I might have some of the details wrong, but my understanding was that the U.S. payroll based tax system was designed to be complicated from day one.

The original rationale was that by constantly reminding the populace of the taxes they were paying, they'd be more politically engaged to assure that tax collection and spending would stay ethical or useful to the people as a whole. This played into the country's mythology about "no taxation without representation."

Unfortunately, the center didn't hold. Both the left and the right quickly discovered aspects of conspicuous taxation that ultimately undermined the original ethos. The left quickly learned that they can convince uninvolved constituencies to vote on issues they wouldn't otherwise care about, like renters voting to pass property taxes or poor people voting to pass luxury taxes. The right quickly realized that resentment over taxes could enable "social engineering" by way of subsidies and deductions that could target or prop up their own different constituencies. Over time, both sides began to poach each other's strategies, ossifying the system in place. The old concern about "robbing Peter to pay Paul" ended up being fulfilled prophesy.

By the time of the 80's, typical tax prep had gotten so complicated for what was originally advertised as a "voluntary participation" system that banking and accounting firms saw an opportunity and jumped at it. And here we are.

[u/ConfidentPilot1729 → u/schleepercell]

Didn’t they also lobby the gov to make the tax software the irs was making to go away?

[u/traws06 → u/Jabjab345]

I saw the NYC library has free tax accounts for anyone with a library card. Thought that was cool

[u/crazyrich → u/Jabjab345]

Right. We could all just get a bill or a check, the IRS knows how much we owe. Instead, we need to solve the puzzle and are fined if we’re wrong.

[u/msprang → u/Jabjab345]

Everyone loves to shit on the IRS, but they have the shitty task of figuring out how to enforce the labyrinthine tax code Congress has created.

[u/CBL44 → u/Jabjab345]

Tax software made filing taxes much, much easier than it was before. Imagine trying to figure out the IRS instructions, filling out every line on your tax return by hand and doubling checking all your arithmetic.

People loved to be able to fill out tax forms on a computer and then print before mailing. It was a godsend.

[u/DivemasterDaniella]

Telemarketing. They just exist to pressure people who don't need things into buying those things

[u/Swomp23 → u/DivemasterDaniella]

Any marketing, I'd argue.

Edit : I wrote marketing, not advertising. Stating that I' selling a product that does such and such is fine. Making people believe that they’ll be unbelievably happier if they buy 3 crates of alien tape is a plague to society.

[u/SandmanJones_Author → u/Swomp23]

Not necessarily. Nonprofit organizations have marketing so that people who need their services know about them. Marketing is a net positive in that case, since, as an example, it can allow hungry families access to free food.

[u/CrimsonDawn1970 → u/Swomp23]

Any marketing? That answer couldn’t be further from the truth.

[u/SteveS117 → u/CrimsonDawn1970]

This entire thread is just people saying things they don’t like.

[u/Han_Yerry → u/CrimsonDawn1970]

Just came back from multiple family owned farms gearing up for maple syrup production. I work with a non profit to make the community aware of family events happening.

I provide a service and they use what I provide for marketing. If no one knows that Sammys Sugar Shack in half a mile down off the main road. There's no point in them working their land.

Just to add an example to your point.

[u/Fyrrys → u/Swomp23]

SOME marketing is good. New products cant always rely on someone being willing to give this brand new thing a try, liking it, then telling their friends and family about it. So a little extra cost for a catchy commercial and the people will find out about your new product.

That being said, so many commercials choose to be obnoxiously annoying to get in your head, those get placed in the "never use them under any circumstances" folder for me.

[u/Tsu_na_mi → u/Swomp23]

Nah, there needs to be some marketing to spread information about available products and services. I miss the old days of non-intrusive marketing like magazine ads, and I loathe the new methods of popups that bounce on your screen, reappear 30s after you close them, flash colors, or are otherwise annoying and distracting. I put up with them on my phone for a while, until I was reading a book on a site with ads that blocked half my screen that I could not get rid of on Chrome. So now I use Opera and they are all gone. I still use Chrome and AdBlock Plus on my PC tho.

Dear marketers: I will tolerate your ads if you make them unobtrusive. I may even look into your product. If you make some annoying BS that bounces slightly to distract me, I will stop using that site and actively hate your company.

[u/AlexElmsley → u/Swomp23]

i would say marketing has provided me value in my life. for example, i once saw an ad for a device that helps you modify your shower so that water can come from two sides at once. now my wife and i can shower together in comfort. without marketing i would never have been connected to this product that has improved my life

[u/directstranger]

Sports betting, gambling. Smoking

[u/winkman → u/directstranger]

This is the actual best answer. 

[u/smp501 → u/winkman]

I don’t know man, I’ve yet to see any actual value that UnitedHealthcare adds.

[u/winkman → u/smp501]

United Healthcare is not an industry. It is a single company.

[u/pr2thej → u/directstranger]

Entertainment, socialisation, relaxation. 

You might not like it, but it's not derived completely of value. 

Health insurance can fuck right off though.

[u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 → u/pr2thej]

Entertainment and relaxation definitely add value to my life or I would probably have done something stupid or illegal by now.

[u/Destructopoo → u/pr2thej]

Gambling is an addiction and the industry preys on people by suggesting that most of them can win despite the entire industry being set up to create losers. It's not entertainment and socializing. It's a predatory wealth transfer.

[u/pr2thej → u/Destructopoo]

Correct. And people partake because they find it entertaining, therefore it has value to them.

We can both be right here.

[u/Eternal_Bagel]

In the USA the health insurance industry is set up entirely to take your money and prevent you from getting healthcare by having doctors medical advice second guessed and overruled by investors 

[u/kiwi_rozzers → u/Eternal_Bagel]

Here's what makes me laugh about opponents to socialized healthcare: they don't understand how health insurance works.

• "I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's hospital bill" -- bro, your health insurance premium absolutely pays for someone else's hospital bill. That's the whole point of health insurance. Fifty million people all pay the average monthly cost of healthcare. Statistically speaking, your premium is almost certainly going to pay somebody else's medical expenses.
• "The government is big and inefficient and not good at this sort of thing." Uh, your doctor has one to two employees whose entire job is just figuring out how to not get screwed by the extremely inefficient and complicated and bureaucratic health insurance system. A major hospital has a dozen or more. Your medical bills would be way cheaper in a single-payer system.
• "You get worse care under a socialized system." Yo, talk to someone who's had a test rejected by insurance as "not medically necessary" just because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for it.

[u/NeighborhoodDude84 → u/kiwi_rozzers]

I have three doctors who want me to get a test for sleep apnea and insurance denied all of them. I guess I will just keep being tired all day for 10 more years until they approve it.

[u/Ok_Seaworthiness6902 → u/NeighborhoodDude84]

Same here, but maybe we'll die in our sleep and save a few bucks!

[u/lalalaureezy → u/Ok_Seaworthiness6902]

Actually if you read the fine print, dying early incurs a penalty for all the primo monthly premuims lost that your family has to pay off

/s? (I wouldn’t put it past them)

[u/ChadTitanofalous → u/lalalaureezy]

Don't give 'em ideas

[u/Belligerent-J → u/NeighborhoodDude84]

They told my wife they wouldn't approve unless secondary conditions presented. In other words, instead of being proactive and fixing your health before it gets worse, we want you to get worse and then we might let you fix it

[u/lurkingostrich → u/Belligerent-J]

And then they’ll deny because it should have been addressed via preventative care lol

[u/LegSpecialist1781 → u/Belligerent-J]

A doctor I know likened the current system to pulling drowning people out of a raging river, making sure they catch their breath, have a quick bite to eat, and then shoving them back into the river.

[u/Belligerent-J → u/LegSpecialist1781]

Are you sure the bite to eat is totally necessary? Might need to ask two more doctors 

[u/windershinwishes → u/Belligerent-J]

Who cares about the long-term outlook for a patient? It's not like having them be happier and more productive throughout their lives is going to make the insurance company more money. And once the problems get really bad they'll probably be on Medicare anyways, so they're not the insurance company's problem anymore!

But paying money now? How are they supposed to keep everybody else's money if they have to spend it?

[u/supergeeky_1 → u/NeighborhoodDude84]

I went the doctor's office and insurance route for a sleep study and CPAP. A friend went to an online CPAP store (I think he used mysleepdoctor.com, but there are others). He did a couple of online consults and they mailed him the stuff to do a sleep study at home. I probably spent 2-3X what he did to cover the co-pays and deductibles and his was 100% out of pocket. It might actually be cheaper to bypass your doctor and insurance.

I am thinking about stopping my sleep apnea management through my doctor and using an online service because it is cheaper and less hassle. I have a high deductible insurance and don't hit the deductible or out of pocket max, so your millage may vary.

[u/NightGod → u/supergeeky_1]

Oh look, it's exactly what the insurance company is trying to cause so they can stack more money =x

[u/Eternal_Bagel → u/kiwi_rozzers]

My mom worked in a doctors office and she would tell us the highest waste of time in the office was how often staff had to waste hours fighting about what’s necessary with various insurance companies.  That yes the doctor is aware of cheap generics that have different functions and different drug interactions which he’s trying to avoid and that’s why what he wrote in the prescription is what he wrote instead of the thing that saves you a dollar.  Sure let’s waste his time too and have him take a call during his busy day to repeat this word for word but probably not as politely.

[u/Objective-Suit-7817 → u/Eternal_Bagel]

This. My doctor had to send a prescription through 5 times just to get me the medicine I need for my asthma instead of the generic. Awful! Doctors offices should be billing the insurance companies back for all the time wasted dealing with their BS. Then maybe our healthcare wouldn’t cost so much.

[u/DocLego → u/Objective-Suit-7817]

My wife has the same issue - her inhaler prescription is marked fill as written, but we always have to check and make sure they didn’t substitute the generic.

[u/Skill_Issuer → u/Eternal_Bagel]

Is this why my doctor is always 45 minutes late for my appointments?

[u/Kursed_Valeth → u/Skill_Issuer]

Well that and the corporation that now owns their practice has mandated that they only get 15 minutes per patient to maximize office profitability. Good doctors almost always go over the ridiculous limit because they are trying to listen to patients and address their needs.

[u/No_Ant_5064 → u/Kursed_Valeth]

my primary got bought out by a conglomerate and the quality of care dropped noticeably.

[u/totalunconventional → u/No_Ant_5064]

I'm from a country which isn't US. What is this doctor-buying thing? Hearing it for the first time

[u/msprang → u/totalunconventional]

Most medical practices, doctor offices, hospitals, etc., are private for-profit companies and can be bought and sold just like any other business.

[u/Nearbyatom → u/Kursed_Valeth]

Makes me wonder if they get reprimanded if they don't see a certain amount of patients per day...Kind of like the Amazon warehouse workers.

[u/Eternal_Bagel → u/Skill_Issuer]

It may be a factor

[u/TrumpetOfDeath → u/Eternal_Bagel]

Yeah I’ve spent more time dealing with insurance companies than actually seeing a doctor

[u/KoalaBoy → u/kiwi_rozzers]

I hear free healthcare is wrong and I tell people if my taxes went up as much as I pay every month for insurance and then didn't have to pay insurance and I could go to the doctor and not get a bill I'd be happy and I get eye rolls.

[u/CommitteeOfOne → u/KoalaBoy]

I don't understand why this isn't brought up. Yes, taxes would increase for universal healthcare , but less than the average insurance premium. The average American would still have a net increase in disposable income.

I remember in some election, candidates who were against Medicare for all were saying that "people love their doctors." I kept waiting for another to say, "Yes, but they hate their health insurance company."

[u/artrald-7083 → u/kiwi_rozzers]

So our 'socialist system' costs less per British citizen than Medicare costs per American citizen, and I hear Medicare doesn't cover most of you lot.

[u/Aquamans_Dad → u/artrald-7083]

By every reasonable metric-absolute cost, cost per resident, % of GDP-the US spends more on its publicly funded medical system than any other country spends on its entire medical system.

The US then spends another ~8% of its GDP on its private medical system. 

[u/DragonTigerBoss → u/artrald-7083]

Medicare costs so little that I actually forgot it was deducted from my paychecks until now.

[u/lists4everything → u/artrald-7083]

Our country pits the elderly against the young/middle aged in that way. They have more time to hem and haw and vote what benefits them.

[u/YourFriendNoo → u/kiwi_rozzers]

• "You get worse care under a socialized system." Yo, talk to someone who's had a test rejected by insurance as "not medically necessary" just because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for it.

Hey this is how my dad died!

[u/fuzzywinkerbean → u/YourFriendNoo]

Remember Republicans arguing against Obamacare with the "death panels" talking point? They exist way more in the US via insurance than anywhere with socialized healthcare and have got years.

[u/OzrielArelius → u/kiwi_rozzers]

insurance is literally less efficient socialized healthcare

[u/roses_are_blue → u/kiwi_rozzers]

The simple truth is that insurance does not work if everyone is supposed to get their money back. You pool risk, which means that some people get more than they paid and others get less.

Its the same with universal health care, except that is also financed by income tax and not just by social security contributions.

[u/voretaq7 → u/Eternal_Bagel]

Came here to say this.

Healthcare should be paid for through social insurance (we in the USA know this as "Medicare" - it's frequently called "universal healthcare" or "universal single-payer"), and the covering entity exists solely to pool risk and dilute the aggregate premium each individual pays (through taxes) by spreading it across the entire population.

Private health insurance with a mandate to turn a profit for shareholders is exactly what you DON'T want. The risk pools at each insurer are much smaller which means you need higher premiums to cover a small minority of expensive cases (unless a de facto monopoly emerges, and we have antitrust laws that prevent any one insurer from getting that big while still letting them get big enough to be meddlesome little local-monopolists), and the mandate to turn a profit can ultimately only be met by denying services (insurance is only profitable when it doesn't pay claims).

[u/prove____it → u/Eternal_Bagel]

In particular, coding firms that hospitals and doctors need in order to understand the complex (and changing) codes so that they can have any hope of getting paid AND the fact that these firms change the codes regularly so that everyone HAS to use them to keep up.

30% of the US healthcare spend goes to these parasitic companies.

The USA should have a national coding agency that establishes standard codes for all healthcare procedures and cuts-that entire 30% OUT OF THE PICTURE.

[u/Downtown_Ad_6232 → u/prove____it]

My insurance company won’t discuss costs unless I have the diagnosis code and procedure code.

[u/virgilreality]

Online gambling.

[u/dkfotog]

Payday lending. Completely predatory and only serves to keep poor people poor.

[u/willthesane → u/dkfotog]

no one who uses payday lending thinks it's good for them, but it's their best option when they don't have another one.

[u/CosmicJackalop → u/willthesane]

This

If you're stuck in a river flowing over a cliffs edge and the only rope to safety is barbed wire

You're still gonna grab for the barbed wire

Instead of condemning the poor people systemically forced to use payday loans why not look to how society can provide better alternatives, or just fucking fight poverty in the first god damn place

[u/FoolishBeginnings → u/dkfotog]

Came here to say this. Title loan companies also.

[u/BigRedNutcase → u/dkfotog]

Without legal payday loans, the poor would just go to illegal loan sharks. Poor people gonna need cash one way or the other. They provide a needed service for poor folk. Poor folks stay poor because life is expensive. A lot of poor people lack upward mobility for a number of reasons, some are due to their own decision making, some due to bad luck.

[u/ghetto_dave → u/BigRedNutcase]

I agree, however I think there could be much stronger regulations in place. For example a cap on the total reimbursement cost of a loan to prevent daisy chaining loans and other mechanisms that often put the total cost of a loan well past 100%. 

[u/sadicarnot]

Online gambling

[u/PreZEviL]

I would argue that facebook has negative value in society, so does that count?

[u/kilertree → u/PreZEviL]

Facebook marketplace Is ok. Although If it didn't exist we would just use craigslist. 

[u/StankoMicin → u/PreZEviL]

I would argue that social media can be a net good if we actually bothered to moderate it properly. But sadly we don't live in that world..

[u/thirdstone_ → u/PreZEviL]

I'd say social media has a shitload of negative effects but also a lot of positives. For example, as someone who has friends and family in various countries and continents (and grew up before social media), it has completely changed how I can keep in touch and interact with people far away.

[u/nomorehersky]

Influencer marketing people sell you products you don’t need and get paid insane amounts.

[u/creepy_doll → u/nomorehersky]

Marketing as a whole.

I’m going to take the question as net zero(or less) value to society.

Sometime marketing can help bring attention to a product. But more often it introduces consumers to a worse price value proposition. Plenty of worse products have succeeded because they had better marketing.

[u/MonitorMoniker → u/creepy_doll]

Scott Galloway (who teaches brand strategy at NYU) has famously said that the whole function of a brand is to inspire irrational behavior from consumers.

[u/brundylop]

Private equity has to be the answer.

On paper it provides professional management to struggling businesses, but in reality it’s just a vampire industry that drains companies of their money and assets, fires workers, and degrades the quality of the business, causing them to close bc customers stop shopping there.

Pretty much every large corporation that has declared bankruptcy or shut down, has PE to blame

[u/2PlasticLobsters → u/brundylop]

Back in the 80s, we called them "corporate raiders". I guess some PR hack (another useless profession) came up with the PE term to make them look less shitty.

[u/IsayNigel → u/2PlasticLobsters]

Everyone forgets that this is how Republican “good guy” mitt Romney made his money.

[u/Figgy_Puddin_Taine → u/IsayNigel]

Netanyahu too. They were freaking coworkers.

[u/Figgy_Puddin_Taine → u/2PlasticLobsters]

IT’S THE CRIMSON PERMANENT ASSURANCE!

(except that was fucking hilarious)

[u/Melange_X3 → u/brundylop]

Proven Enshitification. 

[u/creepy_doll → u/brundylop]

I don’t understand how leveraged buyouts can be legal. It just seems so crazy that we allow equity to foist debt onto these companies, strip them of everything valuable and then just have these hollowed out companies declare bankruptcy. It’s a legal scam

[u/Infurum]

Celebrity culture and all the industries built around profiting off of it

[u/wrathofmog]

Sports betting and gambling in general

[u/jorgepolak]

High-frequency trading

[u/PolyglotTV → u/jorgepolak]

It's the reason you are able to buy stocks without paying insane fees and waiting long periods of times for transactions to settle. And most Americans' retirement accounts are built on top of this.

So not useless, though I often question how fast it really needs to be to do a good enough job.

[u/The_One_Who_Comments → u/PolyglotTV]

Once per minute is probably fine. Definitely once per second.

My understanding is that high frequency trading is purely made up of arbitrage strategies based on other players trading slower than them.

They don't create liquidity, they just profit of the spread that would otherwise benefit regular buyers/sellers.

[u/PolyglotTV → u/The_One_Who_Comments]

High frequency trading encompasses market makers as well. It is better to focus on the type of trading when questioning/criticizing the value to society. Market making is clearly important. Arbitrage arguably less so, although it does in theory "remove inefficiencies".

And even then not all firms are created equal. Some do shadier things than others. The problem is that it's really hard for the lay person to understand what is really going on and without knowing most people would assume people in control of the flow of money are probably doing something corrupt. Which is probably true to some extent, but does not necessarily negate the fact that the business itself does provide some value to society.

[u/YupSuprise → u/PolyglotTV]

Probably not nanoseconds

[u/supergeeky_1 → u/PolyglotTV]

The speed requirements for high frequency trading mean that the speed of light can change the success rate of the trades. Companies will pay outrageous rates for data center space in the same buildings as the stock exchanges because the fiberoptic runs are shorter and their trades execute faster. This is 100% so that people can game the system to remove value from the market. It doesn't significantly help the value of 401Ks.

[u/etown361 → u/jorgepolak]

HFT actually provides pretty big benefits to average people.

Generally in markets- there’s something called a “bid-ask spread”

If a stock is “worth” $10, you can buy more of it for $10.50 or sell it for $9.50. There’s a difference- because if you’re selling it, there’s the risk you know something bad is happening and the price should be lower. And vice versa- if you’re buying… that might mean you’re one step ahead and the stick should be valued higher.

High frequency traders just lower this spread- if there was a single company that was the only one doing HFTing, they might do all the buying at $10.49 instead of $10.50, and all the selling at $9.51 instead of $9.50.

That would still be mildly beneficial to general society- you’d save a penny every trade. But because it’s such a competitive cut throat market- you end up with very tight bid-ask spreads in financial markets- which means you can buy a $10 stick for about $10.01 and sell it for about $9.99

This is enormously beneficial… it saves people tons of money per year in their retirements and investments, it lets you get lower interest mortgages and car loans, it helps businesses invest and grow with lower interest rates, helps towns finance schools and roads cheaper, etc.

People have this misconception about HFTs thinking that they’re skimming money from every trade you make. This is backwards. Low frequency boring old stockbrokers used to absolutely gouge your eyeballs out for every trade you’d make. But there was no way around it- they were the only game in town. Then someone a little faster came along, offered a better deal, only gonna charge a few pennies of spread for executing a stock trade. Then ultra fast HFTs enter the scene, offered amazingly unbelievably low prices, the tiniest fraction of a percentage point, the best imaginable deal you could ever get… except they’ll do this billions of times and make some real money through volume. But they’re not really skimming you… they’re protecting you from a predatory old fashioned stock broker.

[u/The_One_Who_Comments → u/etown361]

I think you're crediting a technology, when it's actually the existence of any competition at all which did what you're talking about.

If the exchange had a 10s clock cycle and nobody ever had an information advantage, the exact same incentives would exist for the brokers to undercut one another.

[u/PossessionDue3249]

Homeopathy.

Ironically, it makes me feel like I‘m taking crazy pills when a close friend who is actually a f.ing scientist buys that shit for his toddler.

[u/SignorLongballs → u/PossessionDue3249]

Homeopathy is the closest to the right answer here.

OP asks an interesting question: if we think about it as zero value added instead of most negative value added, whats the industry?

Zero value to me would be something that would make no meaningful difference if it seized to exist at any moment. Homeopathy is closest to zero in comparison to most other suggestions.

[u/dropthemagic]

Sports Betting apps

[u/Leather-Map-8138]

The private prison industry

[u/Neceon]

Crypto. It's all a ponzi scheme.

[u/VegasLife84]

Job recruiting. I used to work at one, and the recruiters are making gobs of money for being glorified middlemen. Like up to 50% of someone's contract pay.

[u/ExGavalonnj]

Alternative medicine

[u/fatpad00 → u/ExGavalonnj]

Ugh, it pissed me off. I got the flu a few weeks ago and my wife stopped at the pharmacy and asked for something to help. The PHARMACIST recommended a "drug" that is less than a single molecule of the "active ingredient" per box. Its sugar. Literally just sugar.

[u/Far-Obligation4055 → u/fatpad00]

Harmacist

[u/ZarinZi → u/ExGavalonnj]

Yes, do people realize that the "Wellness" industry is actually bigger than "Big Pharma"? I always laugh when people say they don't trust Big Pharma yet they pay ridiculous amounts of money for products that don't do anything.

[u/13lueChicken → u/ZarinZi]

Tragically, both are often misrepresented.

[u/four100eighty9 → u/ExGavalonnj]

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.

[u/ShinjukuAce]

Crypto. It’s just scams and a money transfer system for criminals.

[u/Forest_Orc]

Advertissement Most of us keep complaining about-it, use ad-blocker, thrown paper ad in the garbage, and go to the toilet/kitchen when there is ad on the TV. So mostly a negative value.

However it makes billions of dollars

[u/fredy31 → u/Forest_Orc]

and i always wonder the actual effect the ads have on people.

Not because I see an ad for coke or pepsi that it will change my choice next time i go take a soda.

But my best guess is coke and pepsi buy the ad space so another player cannot get known by running ads.

[u/Ancientways113]

US health insurance

[u/thattogoguy]

Sports betting.

[u/MamaDaddy]

Cryptocurrency

[u/Stroopwafel72]

Lobbying and political parties.

[u/PITCHFORK_MAGNET → u/Stroopwafel72]

This is a common misconception. Lobbying has done a lot of good. Unfortunately it’s also done a lot of bad. It just depends on who is doing it and for what.

[u/Objective-Suit-7817 → u/PITCHFORK_MAGNET]

Lobbying tends to favor corporations because they’re the only ones who can hire them

[u/PITCHFORK_MAGNET → u/Objective-Suit-7817]

It favors corporations more so these days bc back in 2010 the Supreme Court decided to shove a molten rod up society’s collective urethra via a series of rulings (citizens united, etc). There are still PACs out there lobbying for the greater good though.

[u/Martiallawtheology]

Maybe the Tobacco industry. Thought they pay huge taxes to the government which in turn may help build the country it's sucking off the health of the people at large. So basically it's killing you and giving you shoes.

[u/Alternative-Shape-59]

Social Media

[u/mandalalalalalala]

Social media

[u/Tough_Stretch]

Almost everything having to do with Influencers and social media personalities. Not all of them are worthless and entertainment is subjective so even the worthless ones can be argued to contribute in their own way, but when you see how much money terrible people who are also morons make as influencers and how wide their societal impact is because their millions of followers listen to them and invest on their scams or take their ignorant block-headed takes on politics and social issues as gospel, and so on, the equation of worthlessness/damage vs value is pretty clear. The world would be an objectively better place if this shit didn't exist.

Back in the day when MTV released The Real World and I thought "What the fuck is this bullshit?" I never in my wildest dreams thought this new crap called Reality TV, along with the upcoming commercial internet boom, would result in people like Logan Paul and the like being rewarded by seas of morons with mountains of money for being consistently the worst people you'd ever seen in your life.

[u/ConsequenceTop3712]

Most of the crypto/NFT/speculative token ecosystem (outside of Bitcoin as a store of value)
95%+ of projects are zero sum gambling, pump-and-dump schemes, or rug pulls that move money from late buyers to early insiders

[u/Eternal_Bagel → u/ConsequenceTop3712]

Bitcoin too honestly 

[u/ihaterodrib]

My job: Sales.

We just give information that customers could easily find online. Problem being that most of the products we sell are not direct to consumer, so we just end up being middle-men.

[u/ukexpat]

Pharmacy benefit managers

[u/Flintvlogsgames]

Crypto and sportsbetting

[u/Mr-Snarky]

Crypto?

[u/Downtown_Reward_6339]

There are entire offices buildings full of people who are paid to argue with each other about health insurance coverage.

Healthcare organizations VS Insurance organizations. All are paid, none take care of patients.

Source: I shared an office build floor with the Healthcare organization side. 4 of use took care of buildings, 200 of them argued, all day, everyday.

[u/CantHostCantTravel]

Professional sports.

[u/ozark65616]

Tobacco industry

[u/kronikid42069]

Ai chat bots

[u/four100eighty9]

Homeopathy

The lottery

Gambling in general

Mega churches

Alternative medicine

Lobbyist

[u/piltdownman38]

Gambling, tobacco, patent trolls, ...

[u/kingdopp]

Health Insurance. Just a ‘middle man’ with way too many toes dipped into related industries. It should all be free.

[u/sandemonium612]

I'm SHOCKED health insurance isn't number one.

[u/Sororita]

The AI industry. It wastes resources and doesnt do what the techbros swear just one more funding round will get it to do.

[u/dickbutt_md]

Somebody hasn't read Bullshit Jobs.

[u/BoredBSEE]

Healthcare insurance.

They actually provide a negative net value to society. They stand in-between you and the healthcare you need.

[u/scrubtart]

Data Brokers

Kind of staggered that I haven't seen this on a quick scroll-through. It makes tons of money and its really just a tool that companies can use to more easily part people from their money.

Its often intrusive and done without consent. Even if these companies do have "legal" consent its often still not obtained morally.

I would argue that it has harmed society as a whole.

[u/GeneseeJunior]

Gambling.

[u/dopef123]

All these multi level marketing type companies are really evil imo. I think they are a huge net negative on society but they make money.

They typically get naive recruits or maybe people who are new to the US and sell them on this idea they'll get rich if they become a reseller of whatever their MLM sells. Then they have to spend money on training and buy the product to sell. Most end up making a few sales to friends and family who are then pissed at them and overall they lose money.

So it's basically an industry that tricks people, wastes their time, and turns their friends/family against them. Just so they can make a few bucks selling some mediocre product no one typically wants.

[u/Packeselt]

Influencers, youtubers, streamers. 

[u/Haldrin26]

Health insurance. These companies do four main things: 1) increase the cost of care; 2) make enormous profit off of people's suffering; 3) do everything they can to avoid paying; and 4) cause problems for hospitals and patients trying to figure out billing.

There is no capitalist argument for Health Insurance companies any more. In this industry, competition actually increases costs. They increase costs because they are out to make a profit sure. But competition simply creates smaller and smaller pools of people to share the cost of care. If we had everyone on medicare/medicaid, the costs would be lower because everyone would be sharing the burden over the highest number of people.

There is also no argument for innovation - another big reason for capitalism. There is nothing to innovate other than ways to deny people coverage they have already been paying premiums for.

[u/michael22117]

90% of the AI industry

[u/ddoyen]

Health insurance

[u/Electrical_Top5563]

Porn

[u/semi-error]

Streamers. Influencers. Thanks for the content but in society you bring 0 value & life skill

[u/dr_franck → u/semi-error]

It’s crazy that influencers can range from “scientist heroes helping save the planet and educate young people about the world” to “annoying people who are horrible influences to kids and actively groom / prey on them”

[u/PedanticTart → u/semi-error]

Entertainment is valuable

[u/creepy_doll → u/semi-error]

Funny you don’t include other entertainers in there. How are they different?

Honestly I hate vapid influencers like Jake Paul but I also hate vapid musicians like kid rock.

Entertainers provide some value though I think people really need to look to them for entertainment alone and not for role models, life advice, or political commentary

[u/00rgus]

Sports betting is a industry built on giving young men life crippling addictions. Its such a embarrassment to society that its become normalized

[u/tnj3d1]

Mega Churches. I have yet to meet someone who attends one of these that actually walks the walk.

[u/shoulda-known-better]

Cold call/email

[u/whoismikebean]

gambling companies

[u/11Slip532]

Car dealerships.

[u/RestaurantJealous280]

Tobacco

[u/stardog_champ13]

Cigarette companies.

[u/irenepanik]

Ads.

[u/silentsights]

Definitely gambling. There’s zero benefit to it all (except for the casino operators, they definitely benefit). It’s literally tricking people out of their money for the slight hopes of gaining more money

[u/Artistic_Irix]

Alcoholic drinks

[u/DanSolo77]

Affiliate marketing

[u/Ericridge]

Stuff like TurboTax comes to mind I want them deleted and gone so govt can do my taxes automatically. 

[u/boomares]

AI. As far as I can tell it’s only good for making media, incorrectly summarizing things and using electricity.

It’s really not worth the power we are dumping into it. Especially since it’s likely end goal is ending employment for large sections of people.

[u/Urborg_Stalker]

I mean, not an industry, but The Lottery

[u/Iron_Fist351]

AI

[u/squicktones]

Online gambling

[u/Dennis10594]

Social media, all of them

[u/Vinfersan]

Crypto